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Elders Q and A #2

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Elders

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Summary

This elder Q&A session addresses several challenging topics including the calling to pastoral ministry, transgender pronouns, same-sex weddings, homosexuality and sin, women’s roles in worship, marital submission, and abuse in marriage. We are reminded that God’s Word provides clear guidance on each of these issues, and that faithfulness to Scripture requires both truth and love.

Key Lessons:

  1. The call to pastoral ministry is confirmed by character, ability to teach, godly desire, and the affirmation of others — not merely a mysterious inner feeling.
  2. Using preferred pronouns or attending same-sex weddings is not loving because it involves affirming what God has declared to be sin; true love speaks truth even when it is costly.
  3. While all sin equally alienates us from God and requires salvation, the Bible does teach that certain sins, including sexual immorality and homosexuality, carry uniquely severe consequences both personally and societally.
  4. Wifely submission is voluntary, comprehensive, and faith-filled — not passivity, forced obedience, or a cover for manipulation — and even in cases of mistreatment, the church must balance protection of the abused with the pursuit of repentance and restoration.

Application: We are called to handle these culturally charged issues with biblical fidelity and genuine love — speaking truth to those in sin, submitting to God’s design in our relationships, supporting our elders in accountability, and trusting God’s promises even when obedience is costly.

Discussion Questions:

  1. How can we cultivate genuine friendships with people who identify as LGBTQ while still holding firmly to biblical truth about sexuality and gender?
  2. In what ways might we be setting boundaries that are stricter than Scripture requires, and how can we better enjoy the freedom God gives us in areas He has not restricted?
  3. What does it look like practically to submit to God-ordained authority — whether in marriage, the church, or government — when that authority is acting unjustly?

Scripture Focus: 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 (elder qualifications), Genesis 1:27 and Psalm 100:3 (gender and identity), 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (sin and salvation), Romans 1 (consequences of sexual sin), Ephesians 5:21-24 (submission in marriage), 1 Peter 2-3 (submitting to unjust authorities and husbands).

Outline

Introduction

Welcome back to our second elder Q&A as part of our defending doctrinal distinctive series. We are going to follow a similar format as the first one. We have six questions to go through, and I’m going to present the question to one elder first who will give the lead answer to that question. But then the other elders are free to comment or add to that answer.

Lord willing, we’ll get through all six questions. I don’t think we’ll have time for followup at the end, but if we do, I will invite that. But allow me to open with a word of prayer.

Today we are focusing on the topics that we most recently discussed: homosexuality, gender, complementarianism, transgenderism, and women’s roles. These are all the topics together, and you’ll see those come out in the questions that we talk about today.

But let’s open in a word of prayer.

Heavenly Father, thank you for your truth. It is a guide to our feet and a light to our path. God, help us to answer these questions well. Grant us further understanding as a church, further unity around your truth and how to respond to these issues that we talk about. Pray that we would not just know these things, but that we would do them. Bless this time in Jesus’ name. Amen.

All right. Our first question is actually a holdover from our last Q&A that we didn’t get to, but it seemed like an important question to talk about, so we did want to come back to it. And I’m offering it to Greg first.

How Does a Person Know They Are Called to Be a Pastor or Elder?

The question is, how does a person know whether God is calling that person to serve as a pastor or elder?

I remember this question.

Character, Ability, and External Validation

Okay. Well, first of all, I think the church needs a lot more pastors and elders. Good ones, not ones that are there for the wrong reason. First of all, you have to be male. I think that ties into a lot of what we talked about, and that’s just because it’s a scriptural requirement.

But if you look at the scriptures, I think there are three verses that really talk about who this shepherd and overseer should be. The first one is in 1 Timothy 3: “An overseer must be above reproach.” So you have to basically be somebody whose character is above reproach.

You have to be a husband of one wife. That has to do with how you treat women in your lives. Are you leaving a trail of ex-wives in your wake? In many cases, are you demonstrating Christ in the church in your marriage? Are you temperate, respectable, prudent, hospitable?

And then there comes the one requirement that is actually an ability: you have to be able to teach. This ability to teach is not just a random thing, but it’s the ability to teach the word of God. In Titus, in fact, it talks about holding fast to the word of truth. So you have to be able to rightly divide the word of God and to teach it.

And then you have to be gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. These are again character requirements. Not pugnacious, not addicted to wine.

And then you have to manage your own household well. These are all external requirements. What’s important to understand is that these are not requirements that you think of yourselves. You can’t just look at yourself and say, “Yeah, I think I check those boxes.”

When Paul gave these instructions to Titus and Timothy, he was telling the elders of the church how to pick other elders. These are the requirements that you have to have, and they have to be validated from other people. First of all, there’s a character requirement. You have to have all of these things, and people around you in the church have to also validate that you meet these requirements.

Moreover, it says in 1 Timothy that you have to have a good reputation even outside the church. You can’t be known as some type of lazy person who doesn’t support his family or tries to do that. So you have to meet all of the external requirements and character requirements, and you have to have the ability to teach.

And then I think in the beginning of 1 Timothy, it talks about: if anyone desires to be an overseer, then it is a good thing that they want to do. The requirement here is that you have to desire it. So there’s character, there’s the ability to teach, but there’s also a desire.

I think this desire is an informed desire. It has to be an informed desire, which means you have to understand what an overseer does. You have to understand what it says in 1 Peter about a pastor: he must be gentle, peaceable, able to teach, and not lording it over the flock. You have to also understand that you will face opposition, and when you face opposition, you must be the type of person who handles that with gentleness.

“You have to be able to rightly divide the word of God and to teach it.”

If you look at that, it seems like you not only will face opposition, but you’re going to be facing opposition inside the church. That opposition is not just external, but it’s actually internal opposition.

The Desire Must Be Informed

The other thing is that what a shepherd does—a shepherd is actually a very dirty, lowly job. It’s not a highly exalted job. It’s not something where you’re going to be glamorized. And in fact, I think maybe there are some pastors in the world who are sort of put on that pedestal, perhaps wrongly, but I think most pastors or the vast majority of pastors are underappreciated, not overappreciated.

People are going to misinterpret you. They’re going to accuse you of things that perhaps are false. And you’re going to be spending a lot of time counseling and helping people, and you might not see a lot of fruit from that in some cases, right?

There’s going to be tough. It’s going to be a difficult job. It’s going to be one that you have to wrestle with. And so if after understanding all of that—what a shepherd is, that is a lowly job, not an exalted job—you still desire to be a pastor and an elder because you want to serve God in that way, you want to love the people of God in a sacrificial way, you want to preach the word of God and teach the word of God because that’s just what you think needs to be done.

“A shepherd is actually a very dirty, lowly job. It’s not a highly exalted job.”

Then I think that’s how you should be a pastor and an elder. Does that make sense?

I think when we think about the desire, that’s important. You’re right. And we want to desire for the right reasons to serve as Jesus did. We don’t serve as the world does, right? It is not so among you. We don’t dominate.

One of the things I think about as well is just the accountability that comes with it. Hebrews 13 emphasizes that for elders, we have to give an account to God for the souls of people. And then in James, it talks about how not many should desire to be teachers because with it comes greater accountability.

Calling as Identity, Not Just Task

And so that’s a very sobering thing that we need to think about. When I thought about calling, the sense of calling in general, people think about it in a very self-centered way. Am I called?

I went through a book or a series called The Summons by Dave Harvey of Sovereign Grace Ministries that I thought was really helpful. It unfolded in a way that was very instructive. The main thing about calling is the caller, God.

So we always need to be focused on him. That sounds obvious, but we naturally tend to focus on ourselves. We start there.

But first, all believers have two callings already. We’re called to salvation, right? 2 Timothy 1:9 says we have been saved and called with a holy calling. So that’s all of us as believers.

Secondly, we all have spiritual gifts and an identity in Christ that God has called us to. We need to rejoice in those things. And then if we look at what it says in Psalms, I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than to dwell in tents of wickedness. Just to be a part of it in any way is, I think, a cause of rejoicing for any of us.

So those two callings alone should cause us to be effusive in our rejoicing. But then the third calling is God calls some to be in this role of elders. And so if we look at Ephesians 4, I’ll just end with this.

The role of an elder is not a task. It’s an identity.

“The role of an elder is not a task. It’s an identity.”

You understand that God has made certain people to be that. God has given some as gifts. He didn’t just give gifts—well, he did give that—but he gave some to fulfill this role.

And so that’s a sobering thing to think about: that God has given some people as gifts to the church to serve. I think that’s just some good helpful context in reinforcing what you said, Greg. Thank you.

Personal Struggle with Calling

I’ll just add one other thing. This question is particularly important to me because I actually struggled a lot with the question of whether I was called into the ministry while I was beginning to serve here at Calvary and even while I was in seminary because it felt like my desire sometimes fluctuated. I felt like the work was going to be difficult.

I hear famous quotes about, well, if you can do anything else, then you better do that. And I hear some of my classmates saying like, I just have this burning passion and if I don’t do it that I feel like I’m going to die. And I’m like, I don’t feel that way. Does that mean I’m not called?

We have to be careful. There is a lot of tradition around calling that can make it feel more mysterious and less practical like what Greg was unfolding from the scripture and the desire aspect of it. First of all, it needs to be a desire for the work, not for the position, not for the trouble that comes with it.

Trouble’s going to come to you as a Christian no matter what. But it’s a desire as God has equipped you for the work of ministry. And that’s something that I was able to—God was gracious that one of my professors was willing to meet with me and just talk this through with me.

How do you understand calling? He laid out many of the same points as Greg that it is a collection of things. It’s not just some sort of mysterious feeling you have in your heart that coincides with this bursting desire to preach, but you look at all the different parts that affirm you for that role that God has raised you up for that role and then you say, “Do you desire this work? Are you able to do it?

Well, the trouble that comes with it, God will sustain you for it. Are you willing to trust him for that?” And I feel like that conversation was so clarifying for me. It really freed me up from this fear and despair I felt about feeling like I’m going into this without being called and that’s just going to result in a whole bunch of trouble.

From that conversation and since then, I just feel I know from these things that Greg has talked about that this is what the Lord has raised me up to do and I’m so glad to embrace that role.

“Do you desire this work? Are you able to do it? God will sustain you for it.”

The Congregation’s Role in Accountability

You know, one thing that’s important is you guys have a role in this. I don’t know if you’ve thought about this, but from Hebrews 13: “Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.” That means we’re accountable not only to God, but to you.

That’s a sobering thing. We ask you to pray fervently for us to keep us accountable. We need your feedback.

When the scriptures say that the scriptures are profitable for teaching, reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that’s for all of us and that includes us. We want to be humble, teachable, approachable.

We invite feedback from you all as to what we’re doing well and what we can do better, because that’s what it means to lead well as Jesus did. Jesus didn’t need reproof, but we want to be humble like him.

That’s a responsibility you have to examine us and to follow or not follow as you see the scriptures. Thank you.

“We ask you to pray fervently for us, to keep us accountable. We need your feedback.”

Should Christians Use Preferred Pronouns or Attend Same-Sex Weddings?

All right. Well, let’s move on to our next question. We spent a little more time than average, so we might have to do a little less for this next one if possible. But the question is for you, Mark, to start us off. Should Christians use people’s preferred pronouns or call transgender people by their new opposite gender names? And related, should Christians ever attend a same-sex wedding?

All right, it’s a combination question.

I’m going to start with the same-sex wedding. I think we have to define things as God defines them in any situation and in any relationship. What does God say? Psalm 19:6 says the judgments of the Lord are true. They are righteous altogether. So we start there.

How does God define us as people? Right?

God Defines Gender — We Do Not Define Ourselves

This transgender issue. I’ll start there actually. It’s not theoretical to me in my own family and extended family. It’s real.

I just want to open with that. The DSM, which is the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, defines this as gender dysphoria. It defines it this way: an emotional conflict between one’s created biological gender—male or female—and strong feelings of identification with the opposite gender.

Biblically and biologically, we know that there are two genders. God said this in Genesis 1:27: “God created man in his own image, in the image of God. He created him male and female he created them.” God blessed them in that. This is a reflection of the image of God. It’s a very important thing.

Then I think Psalm 100:3 says something that I think is really important. It says, “It is he who has made us and not we ourselves.” We don’t define ourselves. We don’t create ourselves. God does that, and he’s created us for a purpose. We do well to submit to and enjoy his design.

Now, as far as preferred pronouns go, no. We don’t lie to people. If someone has a different name, I think that’s fine. I’ve got two people in particular in my extended family who have changed their names, and I will use their names. I can avoid that dilemma by using the name, but I’m not going to call him or her by a pronoun that contradicts biological reality because it’s not loving to lie to people. We speak the truth in love in all contexts.

Psalm 100:3: “It is he who has made us and not we ourselves.”

Thank you, Dominic. I agree with you.

It’s my grandson.

Why Preferred Pronouns Are Not Loving

Some of you may know the name Rosaria Butterfield, who came out of a life of homosexuality—not only homosexuality but homosexual activism. She has actually said in her most recent book that she helped create the world that we now live in and she needed to repent of that.

She was very influential in that space. Here’s what she says in an article called “Why I No Longer Use Transgendered Pronouns.”

She did use them for a while because she thought that was kind.

Here are some of the reasons she gives for not doing that. Using transgendered pronouns is a sin against the ninth commandment, which is bearing false witness, and encourages people to sin against the tenth commandment, which is coveting. Using transgender pronouns is a sin against the creation ordinance. It’s a sin against image bearing, reflecting well the image of God.

It discourages a believer’s progressive sanctification and falsifies the gospel. It cheapens redemption. It tramples on the blood of Christ. It fails to love my neighbor as myself. There are a few others, but I think you get the idea.

We want to see people as God sees them and treat them as God would treat them. So we have sympathy, but we don’t have empathy in this case. Do you understand the difference? We can sympathize with their weakness, but we don’t identify with their sin.

“We can sympathize with their weakness, but we don’t identify with their sin.”

That’s an important distinction that we often get confused.

Should a Christian Attend a Same-Sex Wedding?

Now, as for the same-sex wedding, should a Christian attend a same-sex wedding?

The answer is no.

I want to be really, really clear about this. We don’t say no because we don’t love our homosexual friends. We say that because we do.

Again, going back to how does God define things? What is marriage? What is a wedding?

Genesis 2:24 says, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.” Jesus reinforced that. If we understand what marriage is and what a wedding is, then no one has ever attended a same-sex wedding because there is no such thing.

“No one has ever attended a same-sex wedding because there is no such thing.”

That said, we don’t play make-believe. We don’t go to these events and act like something is happening that really isn’t. Why is this so important to many of our homosexual friends?

Because it communicates approval.

That’s why.

And it’s a very important thing.

True Love Speaks Truth

And so when we attend something like this, it is tacit approval of what they are doing. I think we risk offending God. We can risk offending others but not offending God. We need to really think about that.

What does God want? And then we really need to have the right definition of love. Is lying to someone? Is playing make-believe with them loving to them? It is not.

I think we have a sense of love in our society that is much more oriented to what someone wants more than what someone needs.

Agape love, biblical love, seeks the highest good of that other person. And that may not be what they want. Thank God for those of us in Christ, he didn’t give us what we wanted. Amen.

“Agape love seeks the highest good of that other person. And that may not be what they want.”

He sent Christ in this is love and he loved us, right? He defines love for us.

So when we think of it that way, how do I best love my homosexual friends?

Leviticus 19:17 says this: “You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely reprove your neighbor and so not bear sin because of him.” That’s reflected in Proverbs 27:6, which says, “Better is open rebuke than love that is concealed.”

Now, love may mean having hard conversations. But you ask yourself, “What is God’s view of this person? Do I love them as God loves them?” And if so, you can understand because God defines marriage, because God knows what’s best, that I can’t go along with that.

James 5:20 says, “He who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

Taking Every Opportunity for Friendship and Hospitality

That’s love. If you listen to testimonies of some former homosexuals who are believers, people like Becket Cook, Rosaria Butterfield, Christopher Yuan, they will say things like, “I’m so glad that my Christian friends didn’t lie to me about this, but they told me the truth that was so important and loving to me and brought me to salvation, right?”

That said, we take every opportunity to grow in our friendship, show hospitality, make connections, and understand what’s going on in their lives. One of the things I’ve seen that’s common for some of my homosexual friends and transgender friends is that there was some trauma that occurred earlier in their life or something very difficult.

It’s good for us to try to understand that and to form friendships with them and to recognize that, as scripture says, such were some of you. We are not looking at anyone in a condescending way. We are all equally sinners at the foot of the cross. So it’s important to remember that as well.

“I’m so glad my Christian friends didn’t lie to me but told me the truth.”

Thanks Mark. I think I would just add one thing, and I think this is implied in what you said. If you’re going to act this way, if you’re going to make these decisions towards a homosexual friend or transgender family member, if at all possible, try to explain that to the person.

Don’t just say, “I’m not going to your wedding.” Say, “I’m not coming, but can I tell you why?” or maybe through a nice letter or maybe through a humble conversation. But don’t just leave them in the dark thinking, “They must hate me.”

Even with our oldest daughter, the conversation was along the lines of, “We’re not telling you this because we don’t love you, but because we do.” It’s wonderful to be able to explain that fully with the truth of God’s word.

Is Homosexuality a Worse Sin Than Other Sins?

Going on to the next question, and we’re coming back to you, Mark, to begin answering this one. Don’t worry, we’ll get to the other elders. Number three: Is homosexuality a worse sin than other sins? And is it a sign of greater personal or societal depravity than other sins are?

Yeah. No and yes.

Let me explain.

All Sin Equally Alienates Us from God

James 2:10 says, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point has become guilty of all.” Any sin alienates us from God and puts us in need of salvation. Any sin is worthy of hell. So in that sense, no, it’s not worse.

James 2:10: “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point has become guilty of all.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, which I referenced earlier, is beautiful. “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.

Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the spirit of our God.” Praise God, he saves.

All of us are on that list. You understand that, right? There is no descriptor there that doesn’t apply to each of us.

And so we are all equally unworthy of salvation. All of us are there. But we tend to think how we categorize sin is important.

Jerry Bridges in his book “Respectable Sins” talks about things that we don’t often like to talk about that are equally offensive to God in the sense that they separate us from him. Some of the sins on that list include anxiety, frustration, discontentment, unthankfulness, pride, selfishness, lack of self-control, impatience, irritability, anger, and gluttony.

There are a lot of things that we tend to not talk about as sin as we should and be really clear about. So that’s an important thing as well, and just to be humble about that.

In that sense, it’s not different or worse. But there’s a very real sense that we have to say what the scriptures say about this, that it is.

Not All Sins Have the Same Consequences

We have to acknowledge that not all sins have the same consequences.

It’s interesting how much the Bible talks about sexual immorality because it is particularly dangerous.

For millennia now, since the beginning of time, humans tend to believe that sexual pleasure is the greatest possible pleasure and it’s not. Delight in the Lord far surpasses that.

“Humans tend to believe sexual pleasure is the greatest possible pleasure and it’s not. Delight in the Lord far surpasses that.”

And we just need to recognize that. Yet the consequences are severe.

In Matthew 5:27-30, I’ll just read this: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. But if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you. For it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you. For it is better that you lose one of these parts of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

Thinking sinful thoughts, thinking adulterous thoughts is offensive to God, but it doesn’t have the same actual consequences as actual adultery.

The scriptures talk about how sins against our own body, and we just have to acknowledge that that’s a very different consequence. And that’s real.

Some of you have experienced that. We recognize that.

Abomination and Societal Judgment

That said, we have to say what the scriptures say about this. There are certain sins in the Old Testament in particular that are referred to as abominations worthy of capital punishment. And this is one of them.

Not all God’s requirements are that.

But we have to recognize that that’s true.

He who lies with a male as one lies with a female is an abomination. Right? And then in Romans 1 that talks about it just reinforces this. Men with men, women with women. It’s an abomination before God. It violates his beautiful design and we just have to acknowledge that.

Leviticus 18 and 20 referred to the land vomiting out the inhabitants of those who committed such acts and it’s why they were defeated and it was God’s warning against Israel that they not participate in such things lest the land vomit them out. This is very strong language.

Sodom and Gomorrah got destroyed by fire not because they were inhospitable, not because they were thinking lustful thoughts, but they had gone so far that this was an acceptable behavior and even an encouraged behavior. And Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned some 23 times in the scriptures as warnings to us of the seriousness of this sin. And we have to just acknowledge that’s real.

“There are certain sins in the Old Testament referred to as abominations worthy of capital punishment.”

That’s real. And the Bible also says that there are different levels of judgment for different sins.

Romans 1 talks about receiving in their bodies that is homosexual behavior the due penalty of their error.

There are unique consequences. If you have friends who are homosexual, you can see this. I think you can see this both in their bodies and in their personalities. To me that’s very obvious. And it has damage in this life but it also has damage in the next.

I’ll just wrap up by saying this.

Jesus said a number of times talking about people who engaged in certain sins and in particular rejecting him. He said it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than for you in the judgment.

We just have to acknowledge what Jesus said. There are different and more severe consequences both in this life and in the next. And lastly, I’ll say no civilization has survived this.

No civilization has had the open acceptance of homosexuality and survived. Babylon, Rome, Greece, maybe us. We just have to acknowledge that. But again, we have a gracious God. No one is beyond the reach of God’s hand if he wants to save.

Such were some of you. Such were some of you. Praise God.

We need to be humble about that.

Homosexuality Is Not the Unforgivable Sin

The only thing I wanted to add very quickly was that I understand the spirit of that question. The question is asked because of a reaction against the church downplaying the sin of homosexuality and trying to say that this is an equal or maybe not even that bad of a sin.

The thing we have to remember—everything that Mark said—but we also have to remember that homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin, right?

There’s actually only one unforgivable sin, and that is the sin of unbelief.

Believe in Christ. It doesn’t matter. I think I said this during my Sunday school. It doesn’t matter if your entire society is heterosexual, you’re still going to hell, right? Unless you believe the gospel. That’s something to keep in mind.

Christopher Yuan said it helpfully. He said that the opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality, it’s holiness.

“The opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality, it’s holiness.”

Right. And that’s what God calls all of us to.

You’ve been kind of quiet, but no more. Question number four is coming your way.

What do you say?

I want a vocal rest.

Okay.

Why Don’t We See Women Participating in the Main Worship Service?

Yeah, we got you preaching later, so I understand. All right. If the Calvary leadership believes that the Bible permits women to speak in the main worship service, why don’t we see that at Calvary?

Avoiding the Pharisee’s Extra Boundary

All right. I think this is a great question, especially since I’m a little torn on this and I think there are several reasons.

First, it would be a shift from what has been done. There’s a kind of idea that anytime you do something new, you’re moving towards something. I think the fear is often that you’ve heard this term “slippery slope”—that once you start one thing, so in 2026 a woman may do announcements and then in 2036 there’s a woman pastor in a church. How did you get there? Well, you let this first thing happen back in 2026. So let’s just avoid that.

But what you end up doing in that case is what I’ve talked about, at least in Yam, about what the Pharisees would do. I’m not saying that we are Pharisees, but just saying that they would actually set a boundary that’s actually further out than God’s boundary. So if the boundary is here, but I set the boundary at the door, if I don’t ever cross the door, I’ll never get to here.

I keep myself from sinning by keeping myself so far away from the boundary God set that there’s no chance I will ever get here. The problem is there is a lot of great ministry opportunity between the door and the pulpit in that analogy, and I think that we have now just started discussing that.

The only time I remember—and I’ve been an elder for 11 years here—the only time I remember us even discussing it or thinking about it was when we talked about 1 Corinthians. We did a study of 1 Corinthians in the home group and we talked about chapter 11, chapter 14 in particular, and what that would actually mean in the service.

One of the other things we had considered was that there may be opposition within the church itself. Not that we are afraid of opposition, but we didn’t want to unnecessarily cause distraction and division by someone being offended by that. If we were running out of people and we had no one, then we’re like, “Okay, we don’t have anybody. What do you guys want to do?” We realized that’s not really the way that God wants it.

I guess I’m saying all that to kind of paint the picture of what it was. I’ll say this: no woman, at least to my knowledge, has ever come and said, “I want to read scripture in the service too,” and we had to say no, you can’t. That’s never come up.

“There is a lot of great ministry opportunity between the door and the pulpit.”

But I think it’s never come up because of just the way the atmosphere that we have created would make it so a woman wouldn’t even think that they should ask that question. They would think that they would get laughed at or they would be called a sinner or whatever. Or we would think they’re rebellious or anything. So they wouldn’t even think to ask something like that.

I think with all those things, we started talking about it just because we were going to talk about complementarianism and then we realized, wait, we all agree. Which was a shock to me because I thought I was the only one that felt that way, honestly, and we just never had a chance to talk about it. Then we start talking and saying, like, oh wow, we agree. It was really funny—Mark was away, I think it might have been at the Shepherd’s Conference.

Moving Forward Biblically

May be that’s what it was. But he was away and we’re like, “Oh man, now we’re going to have to convince Mark because the three of us agree, but he’s going to come back.” And within about 15 words, he was like, “Brothers, you don’t have to convince me. I believe this as well is what the scripture says.”

And so the only thoughts are now we want to make sure that if we do that, it’s not just to kind of throw it in the face and say, “See, this is allowable.” We’re just going to have a woman do this and next week you’re going to have a woman reading the scripture just to have for the sake of it.

But the same way that we choose the men to lead the scripture, to read the scripture, or to do anything else in the service, we will have those same requirements there. We want someone with a strong testimony. We want someone who everyone looks at and says that is a godly person, whether they’re a man or a woman.

And so we still want to be careful with that. We want to be careful how we do it because we want to make sure that we are trying to honor God and we’re not trying to send a message or establish precedent or anything like that.

We do want to make sure that we are careful and that anything we think of that is going to impact the church, we are really praying about it and we’re doing it because we want to exalt the name of Jesus. We believe that men and women are gifted and we believe that men and women can serve in those ways as long as we aren’t violating the role restrictions that God has set in his word.

It’s something that you may see. We haven’t really had a chance to discuss what we would do or how we would implement it. You guys are probably tired of me doing announcements, so we may have somebody else doing that soon.

But I think that’s kind of where we stand. We don’t see it because we didn’t consider it too much. Also, the times that we did consider it, we thought about a negative impact that it could have.

And now I think we’re rethinking that. We’re trying to make sure that we’re biblical and if someone has an objection, let’s sit down and go through scripture and talk about that objection.

We actually didn’t get any objections when we taught about it in Sunday school, which was kind of telling. No one said, “I think you’re reading scripture wrong and this and that.” But if someone came to us like that, we would have that discussion.

I think we just don’t want to be blocked because we think somebody might have an objection or we don’t want to offend that person. I’d rather offend the person than not offend God. It’s the same thing that Mark said to an earlier question.

Yeah, I like what you said, that we’re balancing not wanting to cause unnecessary distraction, but also not being afraid to hold to what the Bible teaches and actually act upon that. I really liked something that Mark said in one of our meetings about this where he mentioned that the scriptures are clear that women are not to be in a spiritual authority role or a teaching role.

And so obviously that excludes the pulpit. That excludes teaching a mixed group in Sunday school or something like that. But certain other things are a little bit more ambiguous, like is leading worship a teaching role or is doing a scripture reading a teaching role?

We can talk about that, but that’s really something that people are going to need to defer to their local elders about. The elders are the ones going to think through this and they’re welcoming feedback from the congregation, but those are a little bit more ambiguous.

Let the elders set the course there. Submit to your elders’ direction there and allow for other churches to come to a different but biblical stance.

You say, “Well, that church, they don’t allow women at all in their service.” That’s okay according to scripture. They might be interpreting certain things, but it’s also okay to allow that.

Learning to follow the lead of your elders in this area, I think would be really helpful.

“Let the elders set the course. Submit to your elders’ direction and allow for other churches to come to a different but biblical stance.”

Yeah, there’s just such great freedom here. The restrictions are really, really narrow and so we just want to explore all that God would allow us to do in this area.

Some have approached me about something, well, this person shouldn’t be doing this, whether it be an announcement or something like that. And to your point, brother, let’s just be biblical about that. Can you show me where that is biblically?

And often it’s nowhere to be found. It might be your conviction, but if it’s not biblical, you just back off on that.

If that makes sense. Yeah.

Rejoicing in Freedom Within Biblical Boundaries

I think it’s amazing that this applies in so many areas of life where we can rejoice in the great freedom that we have to do all kinds of things rather than just focus on the one or two restrictions. That’s human nature from the very beginning—you have one restriction and you’re going to focus on that, where you have all this wonderful freedom to do all kinds of things for the Lord. Let’s just rejoice in that.

“We can rejoice in the great freedom we have rather than just focus on the one or two restrictions.”

All right. Let me go to our next question. I’ll be starting the answer on this one.

What Does Submission Mean in Marriage?

What exactly is meant by the term submission in the context of the wife’s role in marriage? Is it exactly the same as obedience? And what does this look like practically?

Just building on what Khif taught on complementarianism and going back to that main passage, Ephesians 5:21-24: “Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. Wives, be subject to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ also is the head of the church. He himself being the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.”

From a grammatical and linguistic standpoint, the word translated “be subject” is from the Greek verb hupatasso, which means literally to arrange oneself in order under another’s authority. It’s used in a passive sense there. So it’s something that you do to yourself to arrange oneself in order under another’s authority, or more simply, to submit oneself.

Now, is this the same thing as obedience? Does a wife need to obey her husband? Well, submit is basically a synonym for obey, and this is obvious from the scriptures in 1 Peter 3:5-6.

“Submit means literally to arrange oneself in order under another’s authority.”

1 Peter 3:5-6 uses these two terms right after each other. 1 Peter 3:5 says: “For in this way in former times the holy women also who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands.” There’s the word from hupatasso. “Just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.”

So submission and obedience are practically synonyms.

What does this look like practically? Allow me to present seven points from a Sunday school lesson I did on God’s design for wives. If you want to listen to the fuller answer, you can go back to my series on biblical counseling for marriage and parenting.

Submission Is Not Passivity or Manipulation

We have that on our website. But seven points as to what submission looks like practically. And then I’ll give you one specific example at the end.

Submission is first not passivity, silence, or isolation. It’s not passivity, silence, or isolation. Wives are not supposed to just sit pretty while their husbands do and decide everything.

No, wives are supposed to use their gifts, their talents, and their counsel to help their husbands, their families, and the church, though always under the lead of and with respect to their husbands.

“Wives are supposed to use their gifts, talents, and counsel to help their husbands, though always under their lead.”

Submission is also not intellectual or theological stagnation.

Historically, there have been many cultures, even Christian cultures, which have said, “Women are spiritually incapable. Don’t bother teaching them. Don’t bother trying to develop their minds. They just can’t handle it. They’re so fleshly.” That’s not true.

Wives are not to be treated that way. Wives are not intellectuals who are naive and cannot think for themselves.

Now wives are to, as the scriptures call them along with all Christians, grow in wisdom, grow in the mind of Christ, and grow in knowledge of the world so that they can become greater helpers and better co-rulers with their husbands and with the other men and women of the earth.

Number three, submission is not a cover for sinful manipulation. It’s not a cover for sinful manipulation.

Submission Is Voluntary and Comprehensive

The wife is not the neck that turns the head wherever she wants. Say my husband’s ahead behind the neck. That’s not the biblical design. Wives must not submit publicly while privately they selfishly browbeat, guilt trip or bargain with their husbands to get what they really want. That’s not submission.

But what is submission? Submission is, fourthly, voluntary and not forced. It’s a command given to wives and not to their husbands. Husbands are not called to force their wives to submit.

Submission is an attitude as well as an action.

Just like with Christ in the church, the church does not conform to Christ only outwardly. No, Christ wants the church’s heart. And so it is with a wife’s submission to her husband.

She looks to cultivate feelings of lining up under her husband internally even as she looks to perform that externally. But she doesn’t wait for the feelings to come. She shouldn’t say, “Well, until I feel like submitting, I’m not going to submit.” Because what that’s going to lead to is not submitting.

No, it’s chiefly an act of the will, and you trust that your emotions and feelings will follow.

Sixth, submission is comprehensive. It is comprehensive. This is very obvious from the text. It’s not a general direction where I follow my husband’s general direction only for the important things or only when I think he’s being reasonable.

“Submission is voluntary and not forced. It’s a command given to wives and not to their husbands.”

That’s not what the text says. Again, the parallel to Christ in the church. Does the church do that to Christ? Does the church follow him only when it thinks it’s reasonable or only on the important things?

And then verse 24 is even more explicit. It says, “So also the wives ought to be subject to their husbands in everything.” Now, if a wife is unable to follow the lead of her husband—maybe because it would represent disobedience to the Lord or maybe it’s just beyond her ability to do what he requests—still, wives are to do their best to line up under their husband’s lead and direction or to respectfully explain why they cannot do what he is asking.

Submission Is an Act of Reverent Faith

And the objection to that is, well, won’t an ungodly husband just take advantage of that? If it’s supposed to be comprehensive submission, if it’s supposed to be an all-out effort to try and line yourself up under your husband, isn’t that going to lead to an ungodly husband taking advantage?

Well, the one last thing I’ll say about submission is submission is an act of reverent faith. It is an act of reverent faith. In one sense, submission is risky, but so is all Christian obedience, right? To a certain extent.

The scriptures specifically say this is to be done out of fear of Christ. Back to Ephesians 5:21. Not in the sense of, oh, I better do this or Christ is going to judge me. No, it’s out of reverence for him. It’s out of a great respect for who he is and his design and his power.

“Submission is risky, but so is all Christian obedience. It is done out of reverence for Christ.”

Interestingly, 1 Peter 3 reminds us that often ungodly husbands will become less demanding when a wife submits rather than more demanding. That’s the encouragement from the scripture. When you act in a chaste and respectful way to your husband, you win him without a word, even if he’s disobedient to the word.

Doesn’t always happen, but it often does happen. So that’s an encouragement to wives. Nevertheless, whether that does or doesn’t, God’s promise to wives from the scriptures is, I will take care of you. You don’t have to worry like, well, what’s going to happen if I submit?

Again, the same for all Christian obedience. What’s going to happen if I’m going to be obedient? Won’t that mean that I’m going to get in trouble or I’m not going to get what I need? God says, I will take care of you.

And if you are mistreated, I will take vengeance for you. You don’t have to take vengeance for yourself.

What this means is that the wife is freed up. She’s freed up from fear to aggressive, faith-filled submission.

A Practical Example of Submission

Again, going back to 1 Peter 3:6, it says that just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear. It’s not supposed to be craving fear that drives submission. Rather, it’s that faith-filled reverence for Christ that says, “I can do this confidently because I know my God will take care of me.”

One practical example. What might this look like? We know a couple not of this church who had this issue. A decision about schooling the children. The husband wanted to put the kids in a Christian school. The wife wanted to homeschool the children. And they disagreed.

So what was to happen to resolve the impasse? Well, the husband should seek and listen to his wife’s counsel, listen to her appeal. If unconvinced, he should try to bring her on board. If she’s still unconvinced, then he requests her submission and she is to give it willingly, trusting God to take care of all the details.

Then she does her best to support what her husband has decided. Not just okay, we’ll go along with it but I really don’t want to do this and just dragging her feet or even trying to sabotage it.

“She does her best to support what her husband has decided — not dragging her feet or trying to sabotage it.”

No, that’s not lining up. That’s not submission. Rather, she tries to make it work as best she can. She doesn’t wait for everything to go wrong to say, “See, I told you so.”

There’s my quick answer to that. Other comments from the elders.

Submission Reflects God’s Design, Not a Suggestion

I love it, Pastor Dave. Thank you. Ephesians 5 doesn’t say that the man should be the head of the wife and the wife should be submissive to her husband. It says that they are not should be. That’s the reality. I think you’re seeing this in the questions that we’re answering today.

It’s acknowledging reality as God has defined it and walking in that reality.

And that’s a freeing thing. I think of Betty. She has said—I’ll brag on her a little bit. She’ll be very uncomfortable with this, I think, but she says to me things like, “Well, honey, I trust you.” And I look at her and say, “I’m not sure that’s a great idea.” You understand?

But it does two things. One, it shows me that her faith really isn’t ultimately in me.

“Ephesians 5 doesn’t say the man should be the head. It says that he is. That’s the reality.”

It’s in the design that God’s given.

I’ve shown plenty of reasons why she shouldn’t trust me. Just, we’re human. We disappoint one another. But it’s her exercise of faith, and it also stirs me up to think, “Oh, I need to be really following Christ even more closely.”

And so I think there’s just real freedom in following God’s design and asking him to bless that. Yeah, I sometimes tell people that the safest place to be is in the will of God.

All right, let me give you one more question and answer. I think I’ll be able to answer this, and we might have one comment from the elders, but that will probably do us for our time. Save the easiest question for last.

How Is Abuse Viewed and Handled by the Church?

How is abuse, whether verbal, emotional, physical, psychological, and of varying levels of severity viewed and handled by the church? Does a wife have to submit to an abusive husband? This is a weighty topic. It’s difficult even to discuss without losing proper balance.

I’ll do my best. There’s a more complete answer I gave as part of the Sunday school series I mentioned earlier, Biblical Counseling for Marriage and Parenting. We had a lesson on dealing with abuse.

Defining Abuse Biblically

In answering this question, we first need to define our terms clearly. Abuse is not a common word in the Bible, but it is a common word today. Various kinds of abuse are claimed and talked about. It’s a bit of a buzzword. If someone says that they’ve been abused, they know that they’re going to be taken seriously.

Usually, people use the word abuse to refer to any kind of severe or prolonged mistreatment. It can be by someone’s sinful words or by someone’s sinful actions.

The most serious kind of abuse is also called domestic violence, which we could define as sinful behavior that threatens or actually harms the physical life and well-being of another. This includes physical violence, sexual assault, threatening speech and actions, forced isolation, and financial control.

“Abuse refers to severe or prolonged mistreatment by someone’s sinful words or sinful actions.”

Sinful mistreatment and domestic violence can happen in any relationship, but most often happens in relationships in which one is physically weaker than the other. While wives can abuse husbands, it’s more common for husbands to abuse wives. Many children are also abused by their parents or by other older children.

So how should the church respond to abuse of whatever type or severity according to the Bible? I will present a brief outline of response.

Biblically Balanced Priorities in Abuse Situations

The church must approach abuse situations with biblically balanced priorities. On the one hand, we must take seriously abuse allegations and respond accordingly.

On the other hand, we must remember that not all claims of abuse are actually abuse.

On the one hand, we must hold abusers accountable for their sin and not allow for any excuse. It doesn’t matter if you provoked them. It doesn’t matter that you were feeling a certain way or you have things going on. No excuse.

On the other hand, we must hold the abused accountable for their sins, even yes, for sinfully provoking their abusers.

On the one hand, we must be committed to protecting the life and limb of the abused, readily involving church and civil authorities to rescue the oppressed and punish oppressors.

On the other hand, we must be committed above all to the glory of God, which means seeking the godly perseverance of the abused, the true repentance of the abuser, and where possible, the restoration of the relationship between the abuser and the abused.

“We must be committed above all to the glory of God — seeking perseverance of the abused and repentance of the abuser.”

Now, if you’re familiar with the world’s approach to dealing with abuse, what I just said to you is very different.

The world’s goal is usually too limited. They only seek the protection of the one being abused. This is a good goal, but it’s not enough.

We do want to protect the abused, but God calls us to do more than that. We are to minister the gospel to both the abused and the abuser for repentance, for salvation, and for God’s glory.

The Church’s Practical Role in Protecting the Abused

Just to be clear, the church must offer practical help to those who are claiming abuse, especially domestic violence. And how does it do that? The church must practice and enforce church discipline, often by way of biblical counseling.

The church must be ready to provide a safe place for somebody who’s claiming abuse to stay while counseling or discipline or civil investigation is ongoing. Many people are afraid to confront their abusers because they know if they stay at home, they could be harmed. So they need a safe place to stay.

Third, the church must be ready to involve the police and law courts to protect anyone in the congregation from immediate or ongoing physical danger. We can’t be afraid to do that. Sometimes the abused are afraid to do that, but we can’t be afraid to do that as a church.

“The church must be ready to provide a safe place and to involve the police to protect anyone in immediate danger.”

Must a Wife Submit to an Abusive Husband?

Now, what does this all mean for a wife’s submission to her husband? Must she submit to an abuser?

Whether it’s just sinful mistreatment or whether it’s domestic violence, keep in mind everything I just said, but also keep in mind the previous question.

The Bible answers this question directly. In 1 Peter 3:1 again: “In the same way, you wives be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives.”

Disobedient to the word. What does that mean? It means they’re sinning. It means they don’t follow God. It means that they are being disobedient to God in some way, including mistreatment of the wife.

1 Peter 3:1: “Even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won by the behavior of their wives.”

And what does God say? Be submissive to your own husbands. And this only makes sense in the context of the command in 1 Peter 2 and 3. It is fundamentally a call for Christians to suffer righteously as a testimony for God.

1 Peter 2:13 says, “Subject yourselves to the governing authorities.” Governing authorities—Rome—they’re godless. They’re not protecting Christians. They’re turning a blind eye when Christians are being lynched. Submit to this government, this unjust government.

Or 1 Peter 2:18, speaking to house slaves, says, “Submit yourselves to your masters, not just to the good and reasonable, but also the unreasonable.” Why? How? He immediately goes on in 1 Peter 2:21-24 to talk about how Christ did it for us first, laying out for you an example to follow.

Submission to Unjust Authority Is Basic to Christianity

This is actually basic to being a Christian. It’s not just wives. Oh, you wives, you got a raw deal. No, this is Christians. This is what Christians do.

We submit to God-ordained authorities even when those authorities are unjust.

“This is what Christians do. We submit to God-ordained authorities even when those authorities are unjust.”

1 Peter 3:1, right after those things I just mentioned, says, “In the same way, you wives do this.” And by the way, 1 Peter 3:7 says the same thing. “In the same way, you husbands, if your wives are mistreating you, live with her in an understanding way.”

Now Christians, Christian subjects, slaves, wives back then, they didn’t have much recourse when it came to protection from harm. It’s not like a Christian slave can be like, “My master is abusing me. What should I do? Can I go to the government?” Government’s not going to help you.

They had nobody to help them except God. Now today, we have things that can protect us and help us practically, and we should take advantage of those.

Love Your Enemies — Even in Marriage

The negative stereotype about conservative evangelicals, especially biblical counselors, is that they just tell wives to go be punching bags to their husbands. That is not true. We have the church. We have the government so that we can protect wives from that kind of situation. If she’s in immediate danger or if she doesn’t feel safe at home, the church and the government can do something about it. We must take advantage of that.

But let us not forget what is basic to being a Christian. You love and you do good to those who do not do good to you.

Matthew 5:44-45.

This is Jesus.

Matthew 5:44-45: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Isn’t that the experience of Christians? Not just in marriage. That’s the experience of Christians worldwide. He says, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven.”

I have a lot more to say on that topic. Again, you can check out the lesson I did, but that’s just a quick answer right now. I want to add a quick note: it’s fashionable now on social media for people to dig up some case from many years ago at a high-profile church and create a lot of drama and churn about it, maybe with the goal of attacking the church. Maybe in some cases it’s legitimate, but I would say we have to be very careful when that happens.

There are a lot of asymmetries in that, right? One is that a lot of times if something happens or there are accusations against how a church treated an abusive case in the past, first of all, you don’t know what was known about that in the beginning when it happened. The elders at that time may not have had all the information, and you don’t know what else they knew because they’re not really free to talk about it. Whereas the other side is free to talk about whatever they want.

So there’s an information asymmetry. There’s also the fact that I’ve been through many years at this church. I’ve been through a lot of these complex situations, and they are hard. None of these situations are easy or cut and dry. There’s almost always sin on both sides. There’s almost always ambiguity. You don’t really know what is going on in people’s houses. All you have is maybe some evidence or some word of mouth.

I think one of the reasons this question is very popular today is because of this trend where people on social media are able to drag these churches through the mud. Their focus is, “How could you let people treat abuse that way?” That’s their only focus. So I think we just have to be very careful when we see that happen, to not simply pile on without discernment. Almost all of these situations are difficult.

Yeah, for sure. Well, that does it for our time today. Feel free to follow up with any of us afterwards.

Next week we return to our series and we’re talking about eschatology—the premillennial return of Christ. Why do we take this stance as a church? What is this stance? I’ll explain that next time.

One of you close us in a word of prayer. Khif, can I call on you? I know you’ve got your voice, but sorry about that.

Closing Prayer

Let’s pray.

Our gracious God, we want to thank you for how clear your word is. We thank you, God, that in all of these difficult situations and circumstances where we may not know what to do, we are lost for solutions. We know that we can come to your word.

We know, God, that you would provide for us guidance. You provide for us commands, and even when there isn’t a particular command, you give us principles to think through. Your spirit constantly guides us.

I pray that we would continue to be sensitive to your spirit and obedient to your word, God. No matter what decisions come that we have to face as a church or in our own personal lives, and especially in our relationships with others, I pray, God, that we would not let our feelings or our emotions or the different ways that the world is turning make the decision for us.

But we would stand firm in you and we would trust you, God. I pray that now as we have our time of fellowship, you would bless that time and bless the conversations. Then as we come back to worship you corporately, we would do so in spirit and in truth.

We ask this in Christ’s name. Amen.

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