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Summary
We are reminded that sound doctrine must be defended with both clarity and humility. This final elder Q&A session closes a series on doctrinal distinctives, addressing six questions spanning complementarianism, infant salvation, spiritual gifts, the location of hell, responding to continuationist claims, and the cessation of tongues in 1 Corinthians 13.
Key Lessons:
- A wife working outside the home is not sinful if she prioritizes her God-given primary calling to care for her husband, children, and home — a calling rooted in creation, explicit New Testament commands, and the complementary design of men and women.
- While Scripture does not give a definitive answer on infant salvation, passages like 2 Samuel 12 and Jesus’ words in Matthew 18 offer strong and hopeful indications that babies and young children who die are received into God’s presence.
- Romans 8:26 does not support a private prayer language — the Holy Spirit’s intercession with “groanings too deep for words” is a transaction within the Trinity on our behalf, not a pattern for us to imitate.
- The gift of tongues had a built-in expiration — unlike prophecy and knowledge, which cease when “the perfect comes,” tongues ceased on their own in the first century, having served their purpose of validating the apostolic message.
Application: We are called to measure every experience, spiritual claim, and cultural pressure against the sufficient, authoritative Word of God — not personal feelings or secondhand reports — and to pursue love above all spiritual gifts, since love alone will endure into eternity.
Discussion Questions:
- How does our culture’s low view of motherhood and domesticity subtly pressure Christian families, and how might a couple practically recalibrate their priorities around God’s design?
- When someone shares a powerful spiritual experience — a dream, a healing, or what they believe is a tongue — how should we lovingly but faithfully respond without dismissing them or compromising biblical truth?
- Since love is the one gift that never expires and will be on full display in eternity, what specific steps can you take this week to prioritize love over visibility, status, or the pursuit of dramatic gifts?
Scripture Focus: Genesis 1–3 (complementary creation design and the curse), Titus 2:3–5 and 1 Timothy 5:14 (women’s domestic calling), 2 Samuel 12 (David’s hope of reunion), Romans 8:22–27 (the Spirit’s intercession), 1 Corinthians 13:1–12 (supremacy of love and cessation of gifts), and Matthew 18:10 (children and God’s favor).
Outline
- Introduction
- Q1: Is It a Sin for a Wife with Children to Work Outside the Home?
- The Biblical Case for Distinct Spheres of Ministry
- New Testament Commands and Creation Design
- Practical Counsel on Work, Home, and Culture
- Q2: What Happens to Babies When They Die?
- Q3: Is There a Prayer Language or Angelic Tongue for Christians Today?
- Q4: Where Is Hell?
- Q5: How Should a Cessationist Respond to Reports of Miraculous Gifts?
- Q6: How Does 1 Corinthians 13:8–12 Support the Cessation of Tongues?
- Conclusion
Introduction
Well, welcome to Sunday school this morning, our last Sunday school of the ministry year and the conclusion of our defending doctrinal distinctive series.
We’ve tried to go through all of the most controversial yet crucial doctrines that we teach at this church and trying to not only explain them but give a defense to common questions and objections. We are wrapping up our final topics today.
Over the last four topics in our series, we’ve been discussing mostly eschatology and also pneumatology, focusing on spiritual gifts. Have they ceased or not? Why do we believe that they have?
Now, in this final elder Q&A session, we have six questions lined up. If there is time at the end, we could allow for more questions, but I don’t anticipate that will be the case. We’re going to go to these six questions and then that will be the end of our course.
Obviously, if you have more questions beyond what we talked about today, just see one of us who want to continue to shepherd in that way. Hopefully this will wrap up some of those last topics that we’ve discussed.
The elders and pastors up here will take the lead on certain questions, but we’ll also comment on some of the answers that others have given. Allow me to open us in a word of prayer and we’ll get into it.
Thank you, heavenly Father, for your word for clarifying these crucial doctrines. I pray that you would give even greater clarity by our answers today, that your people would be led well, that they may know your will as your word tells us, Lord, and that they would be eager to do it.
Lord, thank you for your truth. Help us to be able to explain it in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Q1: Is It a Sin for a Wife with Children to Work Outside the Home?
All right, the first question that we have today is actually a bit of a leftover from our last set of topics because it has to do with complementarianism.
Is it a sin for a wife with children to work outside the home?
This is a very relevant question, one that many couples are forced to grapple with. The short answer is no. It’s not a sin for a wife to work or a wife with children to work outside the home if she is in submission to her husband and she still fulfills well her primary calling to care for her husband, children, and home.
“It’s not a sin if she still respects and is able to fulfill her primary calling.”
So it’s not a sin if she still respects and is able to fulfill her primary calling. Now why do I say that the woman’s primary calling is the home?
Well, the Bible teaches that while there will be much overlap in the family ministry of husbands and wives, how they care for the family, what they do for the family, the man’s primary sphere of ministry will be the workplace, whatever that is, while the woman’s primary sphere of ministry will be the home.
The Biblical Case for Distinct Spheres of Ministry
And let me give a brief three-part case for this concept.
First, the Bible assumes that there will be distinction in the husbands and wives spheres of ministry. It makes this assumption from the beginning of the Bible.
Go back to Genesis 1. Husband and wife are both called to be imagebearers, to be underrulers of God in Genesis 1. Yet in Genesis 2, the wife is specifically created as a helper suitable to the man.
She’s fulfilling something that her head lacks.
There’s clear complementarity and specialization. They are not made the same, nor will they minister in the exact same ways.
“They are not made the same, nor will they minister in the exact same ways.”
Unsurprisingly then, when God pronounces a curse on man and woman because of their sin, it falls on their main spheres of ministry. The man in Genesis 3:17-19 is cursed specifically in his work.
You will toil from the ground and make and get your bread from there, but it will produce thorns and thistles for you. That’s spoken to the man. Whereas the woman is specifically cursed in her marriage relationship and child rearing in Genesis 3:16.
These curses make sense with the primary spheres of husband and wives that really appear through the rest of the Bible and through most cultures of the world today.
New Testament Commands and Creation Design
There’s the assumption from the beginning of the Bible: these two distinct spheres. Second, there are the New Testament commands that explicitly teach that wives are to focus on the domestic sphere. I think sometimes we forget about these.
But Titus 2:3-5 says, “Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.”
When the older women are trying to disciple and encourage and teach the younger women, to what ends is it? It’s a ministry that focuses on the family and home, husbands, children, working at home.
“Older women are to encourage younger women to love their husbands, love their children, and be workers at home.”
1 Timothy 2:15 says, “Women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
That’s one of those really funny verses and we won’t get into the whole thing, but you can even see in this verse what is the focus that Paul says married women are to have. Where are they going to produce the most good that God has designed for them? It is in the raising of children. It is the care of the home.
And then one more verse: 1 Timothy 5:14-15. It says, “Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach. For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.”
You may remember that section of exhortation is given in directions about a widow’s list that the church is supposed to care for. He says, “For older widows who meet certain qualifications, yes, the church should support them. But for younger widows, no, they should do this. And by the way, they need to do this lest they learn to be idle. If they’re not doing anything, that’s a bad thing. They should be doing something, but where’s the focus? It should be in the home. It should be raising children. It should be keeping the house.”
Now, these commands do not mean that the wife should never leave the home—like, literally, she should never leave the home or that she should just sit at home and do nothing. As we just said, idleness is the opposite of what God commands.
If you compare these New Testament commands to Proverbs 31, I think you get a more fully opened picture. What is the ideal woman of Proverbs 31, the ideal wife doing? Well, she’s very industrious. She’s enterprising. She leaves the home to go consider a field and buy it. She’s selling things to the traders and she’s even bringing in some income to the family in doing so.
So we don’t want to overemphasize these New Testament commands, but they are there. These mean that whatever work the wife does, if she has children, she still needs to prioritize taking care of the home and family.
My third point is this: there’s an assumption from the beginning of the Bible of two different spheres. It’s explicitly commanded in the New Testament. Third, the Bible’s assumption and commands correspond to clear differences in the design of men and women from creation.
Was this arbitrary? God’s decision—like, sorry, the men’s going to do this, woman’s going to do this just because I felt like it? Well, no. It makes sense.
Generally speaking, God made men physically stronger than women. Thus, the husband is naturally suited to be the self-sacrificing protector of and provider for the family. Ephesians 5:25 says, “Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” This is a role naturally suited to the man as the one stronger physically and who can bear the more difficult burdens.
Meanwhile, God made wives the only ones able to bear and nurse children. That’s what they naturally are made to do. Men can’t do that.
Furthermore, God seems to have made women more relational, nurturing, and empathetic than men generally, thus uniquely equipping them for raising children and managing relationships.
God’s assumptions in the scriptures and God’s commands in the scriptures are not arbitrary. They correspond to obvious differences between the sexes.
Now, there will be crossover in the primary spheres of husband and wife in these areas, and every couple will be a little different. It might be like, “Oh, for that couple, the wife takes care of the kids exclusively. She’s like, ‘Change a diaper? No, I got it. Take the kids here? I got it.’” Well, another couple’s going to be like, “No, husband, could you please help here? I need you to do this.” That’s okay. Every couple’s going to be a little bit different.
Wives will in many cases help sustain the household financially. Husbands will help care for the home and children, as indeed is part of their calling.
Practical Counsel on Work, Home, and Culture
Ephesians 6:4 says, “Fathers, bring up your children. Do not provoke your children to anger but bring them up in the admonition and instruction of the Lord.” Both discipline and instruction matter. Nevertheless, the distinction and primary focuses should remain.
Really, both sides ought to be thinking about how they can free up each other to fulfill God’s calling. The husband should ask, “How can I help you fulfill what God has called you to do?” And the wife should ask the same of her husband. Obviously, we must beware of cultural pressure on this issue. Many things in the Bible are radical, right?
This would be one of them. Our culture has a very low view of motherhood and children when actually it is a glorious calling from God and a golden ministry opportunity. If couples and mothers really thought about it, why would you give up this opportunity to raise and train your children and just outsource it to somebody else? You’re uniquely equipped to do this.
“Motherhood is a glorious calling from God and a golden ministry opportunity.”
Our society wants to erase all gender distinctions even physically. But God has given what is good for human flourishing and what honors him.
There’s a common assumption that both husband and wife must work just to survive in this economy. Desperate situations do exist, but they are rare. Most of us could survive if we were willing to downsize a little bit.
Many times, working less—certainly from the wives but even from the husbands—and thus making less money but spending more time at home with the family results in a more enjoyable and more lastingly meaningful family life.
“Working less and spending more time at home results in a more enjoyable and lastingly meaningful family life.”
I think of Ecclesiastes 4:4-10, which I won’t read, but it talks about the person who just spent himself working to make money, but he didn’t even get to enjoy it. He was all alone and didn’t even have the money to pass on to somebody else. What was that all about? What was the worth of that?
Whereas it says two are better than one. Enjoying life together with a companion is so much better. All right, there’s my answer on that question.
Thoughts from you, men?
Just a couple. I just love God’s design for the family and I hope you do too. Psalms 127 and 128 describe a quiver full and a house that’s fruitful. They talk about a table with your children and grandchildren around you as a fruitful vine. That’s a great thing to keep in mind.
Deuteronomy 6 talks about how we should love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. It talks about how we have a responsibility to teach our children. Then it says, “Talk about them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.” What a beautiful thing that is.
That requires someone to be there all the time to see what that looks like. Titus 2 is so central, and notice what it says at the end of the verse that Pastor Dave read so that the word of God would not be slandered. I think that’s warranting some real consideration.
It is a sacrifice. Some of you might know the Casting Crowns song called “American Dream.” One of the lines in it is, “I’ll take a shack on a rock over a castle in the sand.” Right? We sacrifice for the things that are really important. That really speaks to me with the pressures that are on men.
Another reinforcing verse is Proverbs 14:1, which says, “A wise woman builds her house, but a foolish woman tears it down with her own hands.” That’s a promise and a warning to think about as well.
I know when we were in our younger days, I look back and we got pregnant within three weeks of getting married. That was not the plan. I said to Betty, “Well, I guess that takes all the suspense out of when we’re starting a family.” It was overwhelming because we knew what the plan would be.
Our conviction would be to have Betty be at home. I remember when she came home her last day of work, a few weeks before Lauren was born, and she said, “Well, that was my last day.” I kind of gulped. I said, “Oh, this is going to get really real quickly.”
Honestly, brothers and sisters, I can’t fully explain how God provided for us, particularly in those early days. Mathematically I can’t make sense of it, but God did. These are steps of faith. As Pastor Dave said, countercultural—do we love God and do we want to please him and think about future generations?
The only thing I’ll add is from a practical standpoint. Many times when we’re looking to add a second income, especially for parents raising small children, you end up spending all of that second income between transportation and child care and maybe even spending more getting meals outside the home because both people are working 40 hours.
Not to mention the time away from your child and outsourcing that responsibility to someone else. Which is sometimes necessary, and I’m not putting anyone down who does that. But I’ve seen a lot of times where someone is earning an extra amount—let’s say $2,000—and $1,800 is going out, and it’s like, is it really worth all of that for that extra $200 a month?
Most of the time it’s not. That’s just my practical thing to think about. We usually don’t even benefit the way that we think we are.
Q2: What Happens to Babies When They Die?
Yeah, good point. Thank you both, men. All right, already spent too much time on one question, so let’s keep going. Number two, and this does get into the topics that we discussed this last set. What happens to babies when they die? Pastor Mark, could you take the lead on this question?
In light of your comments, I’ll try to be quick, but there is some complexity.
My belief is that they do go to heaven.
When we think about in particular the millions of babies that have been aborted in the world, that’s kind of exciting to think about the people that we will get to meet in heaven.
One of the passages that is drawn from primarily in this area is in 2 Samuel 12. David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and conceived a child with her who God promised would die.
In that passage, David said, “He cannot come to me. I will go to him. He will not come to me.” So there’s a sense that he would see him in the afterlife, which for David would certainly have been heaven. So while that’s not direct doctrinal exposition on this, that is one that is drawn on primarily, and I think for good reason.
David’s expectation was of a reunion with this young one in the afterlife. So that’s not prescriptive, but it is descriptive and helpful for us.
If you look at Jesus’ words in Matthew 18 and Matthew 19, he says a lot about children. “Do not prevent the little ones from coming to me.” That term “little ones” is used in various senses in those verses. One of those senses is that we are to be like little children, coming to Christ and to God in faith and in humility.
But it’s really interesting in Matthew 18:10. It says, “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of my Father who is in heaven.”
There are various interpretations of that, to be honest. One of them that I think is false, that came more from Jewish tradition, is that we all have a guardian angel. I don’t think the Bible teaches that.
But I think one of the interpretations of that verse is that they will see God in glory. They will have favor with him in glory. I think that is a legitimate, although maybe not a primary, interpretation.
So that’s one thing to think about as well.
Scripture Indications and the Age of Accountability
The reformed tradition is very mixed on this. There is a traditional reformed view that because we are conceived and born into sin, children will not go to heaven. I don’t happen to agree with that, but let’s just say that God knows for sure. Will not the judge of all the world do what is right, as it says in Genesis, right?
That’s where we have to land. We just have to understand that we don’t know for sure. We have indications in scripture in Psalm 51 and others. It’s clear that we are conceived in iniquity. In other words, we do have a sin nature. We’re conceived and born with a sin nature.
We go astray from birth, as the scriptures say, which is really interesting. Think of what God said about Jacob and Esau before they had done anything good or evil. God had chosen one above the other. So that’s legitimate.
The other concept I want to throw out there is the idea of the age of accountability. This applies not just to babies, but to children. Maybe you have a two or three-year-old that is lost. What happens to that little one?
The scriptures do talk about having the ability to choose good and evil. There are passages like Deuteronomy 1:39 and Isaiah 7:15-16 where it indicates that children do not yet know good and evil. In Deuteronomy and in the Exodus and in the wanderings of the wilderness, those under the age of 20 would be allowed to go into the promised land. So there is in some sense a lesser or a different accountability for them.
These don’t make a hard and fast case, but they are things I think that are helpful for us to consider in wisdom.
This goes back a little bit to our first question. We want to, as parents, expose our children to the word of God as much as possible and not underestimate what they can understand and what God would do with that.
We just don’t know. For me as a parent, if I look back, I have routinely underestimated what my children could understand and were capable of.
So set a high bar. Give them the word of God as early as possible and trust that he will work with that. Expose them to the word of God.
And then lastly, as I indicated earlier, we are not to go beyond what is written, right? We don’t have a hard and fast case for this, but we do have some strong indications in scripture that to me indicate that we will see these little ones in heaven.
“We have some strong indications in scripture that we will see these little ones in heaven.”
Yeah, agreed. One of the teachings that helped form my thinking on this was the book by John MacArthur, Safe in the Arms of God, which presents some of the same arguments and other arguments that Pastor Mark just mentioned.
All right, moving on to the third question.
Q3: Is There a Prayer Language or Angelic Tongue for Christians Today?
Khalif, this is Pastor Khif, Pastor Crumbly. This is coming for you. Is there a prayer language or angelic tongue that Christians should use today?
Romans 8 and the Spirit’s Intercession
Okay. I’ll talk first about the idea of a prayer language. The main passage that is looked at to discuss this is Romans 8:26.
It says, “In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.” When you hear someone speaking in tongues in modern times, that’s just those groanings that are too deep for words, which is why it sounds like babbling and we can’t understand. And that’s different than the biblical gift of known languages. That’s the argument. Typically, I think there may be other minor verses that are used to support this, but this is the main one that most people use.
So, very quickly, what is Paul talking about here? Well, he starts off by saying “in the same way.” We have to figure out what the context is. He’s referring back to verse 22. Romans 8:22 says, “For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.”
Why are they groaning? Let’s go back to verse 21. It says that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. In verse 22, creation is groaning. Creation itself is under the same curse that we humans are under. Every bit of creation was affected by sin.
All of creation is groaning, waiting, anticipating the day when sin will be ultimately destroyed and banished.
Then in verse 23 it says, “And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.” Then in verses 24 and 25, it talks about our hope. That’s what we’re longing for more than anything else—we want that future glorification. We want our new bodies. We want our totally renewed minds. We want to be face to face with Christ. We want to see him fully.
That’s what’s being expressed. Creation is groaning. We as God’s redeemed people are groaning and looking forward to that day. Then even the Spirit, in the same way, also helps our weakness because we don’t know how to pray sometimes as we should.
Sometimes we pray for the wrong things, we pray distracted, we pray out of bitterness and other things. We pray out of selfishness, whatever it is. Or sometimes our prayers aren’t about that future glory. They’re about some things in life that maybe we shouldn’t even be so focused on.
The Holy Spirit who is in you, in us, is praying on our behalf, is interceding for us daily. That intercession happens between the Spirit and the Father. And it happens with groanings too deep for words.
How is that completed? Verse 27 says, “And he who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is because he intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” This is something that’s happening between the Trinity. We’re not even involved.
“The Holy Spirit who is in us is interceding for us daily — that intercession happens between the Spirit and the Father.”
This is comfort to us that in our groanings, in our longings, the Spirit that is in us is interceding for us with the other members of the Trinity. That’s what this is about.
It has nothing to do with us conjuring up words or having to pray. It says you don’t even know what to pray for. You don’t even know how, and you don’t even understand these words.
It’s interesting because when people take this as a proof text that the gift of tongues or gift of languages in other places like 1 Corinthians, which we talked about, also represents this kind of incoherent speech, they’ll also add on interpretation to it as well. But how do you fit interpretation into the purpose of these groanings here?
Why would you be interpreting it, and especially interpreting it as if it’s a message from God to us? He’s given it to his servants in this language, and then they express it. They say these syllables, and then someone else interprets it and says this is what God is saying. I’ve been in services where it’s kind of “thus says the Lord,” and looking back now, I’m saying, “Wait, this is supposed to be the Holy Spirit groaning to the other members of the Trinity—nothing to do with us saying anything or doing anything. It’s because of our inability that we have the Spirit interceding for us.”
We are not instructed in any way to pray in any other language than the one that we think with, the one that we can reason with. There are people who know multiple languages, and you may pray in multiple languages depending on what you’re trying to express. But there are known languages that can be understood.
That’s the first part. The angelic language we’re going to look at is 1 Corinthians 13.
“We are not instructed to pray in any other language than the one that we think with, the one we can reason with.”
1 Corinthians 13 and the Angelic Tongue Argument
And so 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul says, “If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or clinging symbol.” This is an angelic language according to this, and this is the argument. This is an angelic language that sometimes some humans are given the ability to speak. Whatever God’s purposes are, why he gives us the ability to do that, Paul was one who could.
But with this passage, Paul is using a device called hyperbole. He is expressing something so extreme to try to prove an argument about something that’s much less extreme. In verse two, he says, “If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” And then verse three, “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
So again, he’s saying here, if there was such a thing as angelic language, if there was some language that they had, if I had the ability to speak that, but I didn’t speak with love, it would be worthless. It would sound like someone banging on a gong or clashing on a symbol. It would be worthless.
So much less thinking about us in our normal human everyday language communicating with people if you don’t communicate with love. How much more worthless is that? The point of this chapter and one of the last questions is going to talk about the supremacy of love over the other gifts.
He’s making a case for how much love is needed. No matter what you’re doing, no matter what gift you are exercising, you’re doing it in love.
“No matter what gift you are exercising, you must do it in love. If you aren’t, it’s worthless.”
No matter how amazing and how even outlandish you would say the gift is, we say we have tongues speaking with tongues of angels, but nobody is claiming to put Mount Everest in their backyard as he said in verse two. No one is claiming that part of it. Very few people, and definitely no one who is claiming to have the gift of angelic languages is selling all their possessions and giving it to the poor.
It’s funny that many people, and I try not to really focus on what others are doing, what other Christians are doing, but I do think it’s a little ironic that to cling to verse one, many people who speak an angelic language and they speak this in their churches also kind of lean towards a prosperity gospel. The exact opposite of the hyperbole he’s using in verse three.
It’s just ironic that you take that part, the first part of verse one, but you don’t take the others and try to do those things and say that I have these other gifts. So I would say no, these passages are not saying that there is any other expression of the gift of languages other than what we see in the Bible speaking known languages that the speaker did not know beforehand.
“The gift of languages in the Bible always means speaking known languages the speaker did not know beforehand.”
What I think is also kind of funny is that if you actually look at when angels speak in the Bible, it’s always in known human languages. In fact, there’s a statement in Revelation where I think it’s Revelation where he’s getting some measurements of I think it’s New Jerusalem and they’re in angelic measurements and then it says which are human measurements. So it’s like there’s no indication anywhere else in the Bible that angels do anything different in terms of language or measurements than humans do. And if they did, what would be the use in communicating it to us?
That was great. I just wanted the thought. I noticed that in 1 Corinthians 14:14, you might get there later, Khalif. “Therefore, let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may translate. For by praying in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
And he says other things that I would rather speak one word with my mind than a thousand with a tongue. And so I think we see the relative value of that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Praying with the understanding is key.
I just want to say one because I won’t be able to get to that and I know that is something 1 Corinthians 14. I believe it was Danny who asked me this a few weeks ago and I assumed I’d be able to work it into a Q&A. But there seems to be a difference in 1 Corinthians 14 where he talks about the gift of languages and he uses a plural and other times he uses a singular and talks about an unknown tongue.
So that is one distinction that we can talk about outside of this and I’ll be glad to share more about that and walk through it. There is a distinction that seems to be made where he talks about this unknown tongue and it’s usually in a negative sense. It’s usually not being very fruitful or definitely not as fruitful as compared to prophecy.
And then also when he talks about praying with the spirit, I think sometimes he is even just talking about how we use the phrase like hot air to say when somebody is just speaking and it’s meaningless. I think sometimes he’s even using that because it’s the same idea of breath. It’s the same word being translated as breath or sometimes spirit.
And so if you believe that, if you believe like what I believe, then you would translate the Bible, you probably translate that breath there and not pray in the spirit. But again, that’s not 100% concrete. But that’s just something I wanted to bring up that when you read that sometimes there was actually a different meaning that was expressed in the original language.
All right, we will move on to our fourth question. I’ll take the lead on this one.
Q4: Where Is Hell?
Where is hell?
Actually, it’s a somewhat simple question to answer. Not because the answer is known.
The biblical answer is we don’t know. People have some interesting speculations, but the Bible is not clear as to where hell is. One theory is that hell is in a black hole. Obviously, you don’t get that from the Bible. There’s no scientific indication about a black hole, but the Bible does describe hell as a place of darkness.
“The biblical answer is: we don’t know where hell is. People have interesting speculations, but the Bible is not clear.”
What’s darker than a black hole? A black hole is apparently a place of great pressure. That could fit the idea of torment, but you don’t really get that from the Bible.
Scientists apparently say that there are multiple black holes out there. So it doesn’t really fit the idea of one hell somewhere in one of these black holes.
Theories About the Location of Hell
Another theory is that hell is in the center of the earth. This does have more biblical support, but it’s still not a conclusive theory.
The Bible sometimes speaks of dead sinners as remaining underground even until the last days. Philippians 2:10, for instance, says, “So that at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” Similar statements appear in Revelation 5:3 and 13.
Jesus once spoke of a city being judged and headed downwards to Hades. Luke 10:15 says, “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades.” Like down under the ground, right?
Many think that Jesus journeyed down to hell during or after his crucifixion. Ephesians 4:9 says, “Now this expression, he ascended, what does it mean except that he also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?”
The main problem with this theory is that words often equated to hell in the Bible—Sheol and Hades—more basically mean the grave or the realm of the dead. Literally speaking, the grave is underground. That’s literally where you put people in the ground, in the grave.
So when the Bible speaks of sinners being brought down or left in the grave, that is not necessarily a statement clarifying cosmology. Saying that someone is in the grave or left in the grave does not necessarily mean that hell is where the grave is literally physically. It’s just saying they were put into the abode of the dead.
Furthermore, Ephesians 4:9 is likely not referring to any spiritual journey that Jesus took after he was executed, after he gave up his life. Rather, Ephesians 4:9 speaks of Jesus’s incarnation. When it says he went to the lower parts of the earth, a better translation is that he went to the lower parts—that is, the earth.
It’s much lower than heaven. It’s about his humbling himself.
From what scientists tell us, the center of the earth would be fiery and dark, which does seem to fit with hell’s descriptions. So hell could be there.
The earth is unique. It’s not like one planet among many. It’s the only one that we live on. But the Bible does not teach this definitively.
“The earth is unique — the only planet we live on — but the Bible does not teach this definitively.”
One other interesting theory is that hell is the current earth’s final destroyed form. This theory doesn’t answer where the temporary place of torment is right now, because we know that there’s a temporary place and then there will be a final place.
Intriguingly though, there are a few descriptions in the Bible that indicate hell or the lake of fire might be visible and local in relation to God’s new heavens and new earth.
Clearly, God will one day destroy the earth with fire. Second Peter 3:7 and 12 make that clear. But does the destroyed earth have anything to do with the foretold eternal lake of fire?
Isaiah 66:24 says, speaking of God’s saved people in the latter days, “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
I think Pastor Greg spoke about this verse a little bit in his lessons. But they see the corpses. Does that mean they see people in torment, or is it talking about just their dead bodies on the earth? And by the way, they are suffering in torment wherever they are.
Revelation 22:15 additionally says, speaking of New Jerusalem, “Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.” Like outside the city, like right outside is a lake of fire right there.
So those are intriguing statements. But on the other hand, Revelation 20:11 says that the old earth and the old heaven flee from him who sits on the great white throne, and there was no place found for them. That sounds like out of existence. That sounds like totally removed.
It doesn’t sound like, “Oh yeah, we got this fiery place over here, which we’re going to bring back later.” It doesn’t sound like a fiery earth continues to exist.
So we cannot say for sure where hell is. It may not even be in our dimension.
What the Bible Wants Us to Focus On
But I think that itself is poignant. The Bible shows that God doesn’t want us to focus on the where of hell, but rather on the what and why of hell. Hell definitely exists.
Unless you go there, you must turn from your sin and believe in Jesus. That’s the part that we need to focus on.
“God doesn’t want us to focus on the where of hell, but on the what and why. Unless you go there, turn from sin and believe in Jesus.”
Not sure there’s more to say on that one. We’ll just move on unless you have something else to say. I think it’s in 2 Thessalonians 1 where it says away from the presence of the Lord.
Some people have various opinions on that—that God is actively punishing. But is he there? I’m kind of undecided on that because there seems to be a tension.
But going back to what Pastor Greg preached, that it is a physical place. I think that’s right, and you alluded to that, Pastor Dave, that it’s not a spiritual punishment. It is literal, real, physical.
Yeah, so wherever it is.
Yeah.
All right. Question number five. Pastor Mark, please take the lead on this one.
Q5: How Should a Cessationist Respond to Reports of Miraculous Gifts?
How should a cessationist respond to people reporting gifts of miracles, healings, visions, dreams, tongues, etc.? This is very common. Many people hold to continuationism because they say, “I’ve seen it or I’ve heard about it.” So, how do we respond to those kinds of claims?
Yeah. And I think Khalif, I’m relying on you to chime in with your next question after I’m done. Is raising people from the dead a miracle?
Yeah.
Okay. What is salvation?
Okay.
So, is there a greater miracle than salvation?
No, definitely not.
No. So, I think that’s a great place to focus. God is raising people from the dead miraculously every day and using us as a means to do that. Let’s not forget that. I really enjoyed looking back at your notes, Khalif, on this. And I think when we look at the biblical pattern, it’s important when we think about healing, for example, and there’s a great clarification that we’ve made.
Does God heal people today? Can God heal people today? Do we pray for healing today? Yes to all of that. I’m actively praying for the healing of three family members regularly, daily.
Now, it’s a wonderful thing to trust that God can do that if he so chooses. What’s in question here is the gift of healing—that there are people specifically empowered to do that, which is no longer the case. When we look at the pattern of what the purpose of the miracles was, it was to validate the message of the word of God given. Right?
“Does God heal people today? Can God heal people today? Do we pray for healing today? Yes to all of that.”
Christ’s validity was attested by miracles. The apostles’ message was attested by miracles. And so we recognize that. And now that we have the revealed word of God, we no longer need that. And so when we are asking for something more, we have to ask ourselves, what are we saying about the sufficiency of the scriptures?
I think that’s something that I really had to grapple with on this issue: what do I really believe about the sufficiency of the written word of God?
And so, kind to Khalif’s point earlier, these things are not ends in themselves. The goal isn’t a miracle or healing. The goal is salvation and the revealing of the word of God and the glory of God.
Visions, Dreams, and the Sufficiency of Scripture
I think you alluded to it. Pastor Khalif, who gets the glory? Who gets the attention? That’s an important thing to think about.
Let’s talk about visions and dreams. This is a little bit more complicated because Jeremiah 23:28-29 I think is instructive to us. Let the prophet who has a dream, the prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let the one who has my word speak my word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?
Now, this is an Old Testament passage, right? That gives the distinction between man’s words and God’s words. And so, God’s word is always primary. The prophets were to speak what God said and not make things up, right?
1 Peter 4:10. We had a sermon on that recently. Let him who speaks speak as it were the utterances of God. And so that’s always primary. Visions and dreams are secondary.
Some will assert that visions are necessary where the word of God has not yet come—places on the earth. Now, if that’s the case, then why do we have missions? Why do we have Bible translation as our brother Tom here is working on? Why do we do that if visions would do it, right?
Much is being said these days about visions of Jesus in the Muslim world. These are largely conjecture and unverified.
You may have heard the name Nabil Keshi who wrote a book called Seeking Allah Finding Jesus. I highly recommend that. He talks a little bit about dreams and visions and it’s really interesting.
You see, he asserts that he had one vision and three dreams, but says these were all confirmations of things he had already been exposed to in the scriptures. And one was explicitly from Luke 13. So, it wasn’t anything new. It was confirmation of—look, I think we’ve all kind of woken up in the middle of the night and had God bring scriptures to our minds.
“The visions and dreams were confirmations of things already encountered in Scripture — nothing new, but confirmation.”
Have you had that experience? I think that’s what Nabil was experiencing.
Lastly, with regard to visions, what is often quoted is Joel 2:28, which is quoted again in Acts 2:17, which says that your young men will dream dreams and your old men will see visions. I might have that backwards.
What I love about the New Testament is that it interprets much of the Old Testament for us. And it says that that refers specifically to that moment in time at Pentecost, not an ongoing reality. So I think that’s something to think about with regard to prophecy and tongues.
Khalif has said some things about that and we’ll say more, but there’s a specific pattern that must happen. Let’s say that you believe that tongues exist for today. One, they must be real languages and not just gibberish. Two, there’s got to be a speaking and an interpreting.
So, this is a big deal. I know in college, some friends say, “Well, you’ve got to see this. You’ve got to come to a Pentecostal church and see this happen.” I’ve seen it. I’ve never seen it follow the biblical pattern. It’s always, from what I’ve seen, obviously fake.
So, you might have a different experience, but keep in mind that people can deceive. And as we’ve talked about, the word of God is sufficient for us.
Some will say that tongues, again like visions, are necessary where the word of God has not yet been translated. But again, why would we have the Great Commission? Why would Jesus tell us to go? Why would the prophecy be that the gospel would be proclaimed into the whole world and then the end would come?
Right? That proclaiming requires a sender and a speaker of the word. Right? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
So, I would just end with this: there’s a lot of speculation in this area. I hear people say things like this in this area and in other areas. Well, God could use that. God could use anything. God could use a particular TV show. I think what I’m talking about, right?
Speculation of what God could use is nothing compared to what God says he will use.
“Speculation of what God could use is nothing compared to what God says he will use. That’s what we should focus on.”
And that’s what we should focus on.
Experience vs. the Word of God as Your Authority
I think unless Pastor Crumbley wants to jump in, something I would emphasize in connection with this question is that it actually hits a broader issue: What is your authority? Is it experience or is it the word of God?
Because if it’s experience, you’re going to get in trouble in this area or maybe just when it comes to cultural issues. I remember a conversation that I had with a driver’s ed instructor when I was a teen and he said, “I can’t believe in God because of all the suffering I’ve seen in this world.” So it was just his experience. Or I have spoken with multiple people recently who have affirmed their belief in the Roman Catholic Church and they say, “Well, when I go there I feel the presence of God.” Okay, that’s just based on experience and feeling. But how do you know whether that’s true?
Something a principle emphasized in seminary that I always go back to is: no experience is self-authenticating or self-interpreting.
Experience is just data. You have to interpret it with assumptions or with a standard outside of the experience. So I’m not denying that you had an experience. I’m not denying that you had a dream. I’m not denying that you had this feeling when people were speaking supposedly in tongues. But how do you interpret it?
If it’s not the word of God, then you’re going to get in trouble. You have to go back to the standard, and the only reliable one is the word of God. And because of what we presented in this course and what we see from the scriptures, God’s purpose for these miraculous gifts and what they do, you say, “Well, that’s the standard. That’s the truth that I now use, that I now must use to interpret these experiences.”
Providentially, God may use somebody’s erroneously interpreted experience to bring them to the Lord. But that doesn’t validate the experience as being biblically supported or being new revelation from God. So if a Muslim person dreams a dream about Jesus and that causes that person to come to faith, praise the Lord. But because of what I understand from the word of God, I would say that dream was not new revelation from God. It’s just a matter of God’s kind providence that he used to draw a person to faith.
“No experience is self-authenticating or self-interpreting. You have to interpret it with a standard outside the experience.”
All right, last question.
Q6: How Does 1 Corinthians 13:8–12 Support the Cessation of Tongues?
Since 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 seems to be speaking of future glory, how are these verses firm support for tongues only functioning in the past? Pastor Crumbley.
Okay. If we look at 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, let me just read the passage so we have it in our mind. “Love never fails but if there are gifts of prophecy they will be done away if there are tongues they will cease if there is knowledge it will be done away for we know in part and we prophesy in part when the perfect comes the partial will be done away when I was a child I used to speak like a child think like a child reason like a child when I became a man I did away with childish things.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.”
So the question is: he’s talking about being face to face and not having to see in this mirror dimly anymore, as if he’s looking through a mirror. And this future time when he’s able to experience God fully. So how is that related to saying that speaking in tongues is no longer a gift that’s in use today?
The first thing I will say is this: this passage is part of this larger chapter which is talking about the supremacy of love. What Paul is getting at—and we’ll look at the details—but the easy part of the answer is just to say that Paul is saying love is the only gift out of the ones that he talked about in this chapter that are going to be around at the end, in that future time. Love is the only gift that’s going to be in operation, and the others won’t be because we’ll be with God.
These gifts are given almost as a substitute for God being with us. These gifts allow us to minister to people, to minister to each other. All the spiritual gifts—not just the ones mentioned here, but all the spiritual gifts—have the purpose of allowing us to minister to each other.
Especially in a broken, fallen world. In a world where we’re going to have pain and suffering and disagreement and arguments and we’re going to lose people that we love and all of these things that happen. Our spiritual gifts help us minister to each other during those times.
There’s going to be a time where none of those things are happening. There’s going to be a time when we don’t need to wonder what would God’s will be for me? What college should I go to? Where should I move? What job should I take? What’s God’s will in this area?
Or how should I exactly apply scripture here? There’s going to be a time where we’re not living that type of life. That’s not our existence anymore. We’re going to be with God enjoying him forever.
So these gifts of prophecy and knowledge in particular won’t be in existence. And in verse 8, that’s what he’s talking about here. He first talks about how love is superior to other gifts because you can’t operate in those other gifts without love. That’s the first three verses we looked at.
Then verses 4 through 7 talk about what love is, what real biblical love looks like. What one who is filled with love and operates in love is able to do and should do, and how we treat each other and how we look at each other.
And then in verse 8 he comes and says love never fails. Here’s another reason why love is superior because it never fails. And then he says, well, gifts of prophecy and knowledge, they’ll be done away with.
“Love never fails — that’s another reason love is superior. Prophecy and knowledge will be done away with, but love endures.”
The Built-In Expiration of Tongues
And as we talked about when we discussed these gifts, particularly speaking in tongues, he uses three different words here to talk about something passing away. He talks about love never failing, which is a different word than “done away.” That was translated “done away” when he talks about prophecy and knowledge, which is a different word than when he talks about tongues. And we said that when he mentioned tongues, the word and also the grammar of it—the voice refers to an action that acts on itself. So in this case, tongues stopping, ceasing—it was built into tongues there.
Notice he doesn’t say something comes, right? Something comes to stop the operation of knowledge and stop the operation of prophecy, but nothing comes to stop the operation of tongues. It had a built-in expiration date. It’s like those windup toys—he wound it up and it walked along. We had the gift of tongues and sometime in the first century it stopped, and he didn’t wind it back up. That’s it. It just stopped because it served its purpose.
And that’s what he says here. And then he says look, even these other gifts that will continue in some form even after tongues expires—you’ll still have prophecy, this forthtelling, this preaching and proclaiming the word of God. You’ll still have knowledge, but there’s going to come a point where those will end as well.
So tongues is going to just expire on its own. Knowledge and prophecy—something is going to come. The perfect is going to come and stop those things or do away with them.
“Tongues had a built-in expiration date. It served its purpose in the first century and then it stopped.”
And then you’ll come into this perfect state and love will still be there. You’ll see God face to face and then you’ll fully understand love. It’s not even just that love is going to kind of limp along and make it to the finish line, but love is going to be on full display.
Love: The Supreme and Eternal Gift
So that’s what you should be seeking. That’s what you should be hoping. That’s what you should be looking to express.
The Corinthians had a problem with looking for and exalting these showier gifts that kind of put them on display or maybe helped them to get a title. It helped them to feel important.
And they revered people who had some of these gifts. So he’s really trying to show them that love is the ultimate gift. You have experienced God’s love. You’re an object of his love. And now being filled with his love, you are able to give that same love out to others.
In fact, because you are, now you’re required to. And the Bible says if you don’t love your brother, you don’t love God.
So love is the supreme of all the gifts. It’s the foundation and holds them up.
“Love is the supreme of all the gifts — the foundation that holds them up and the superior one that is above them all.”
But then it also is the superior one that’s above them all. So that’s really the argument that he’s making here and why he brings up something a future event and talks about something stopping in the past while he’s pointing us to future glory.
His point is to say love will survive and love will thrive and love will be on full display in the end in the future.
Well said.
All right. Well, we made it to the end and it’s just about 10 o’clock.
Conclusion
Rather than try to ask for another one-minute question, I think I’ll just end it there. But as I said, this is our final elder Q&A and this is our final lesson in the Defending Doctrinal Distinctives course.
I just want to say on behalf of the pastors, thank you. Thank you for being part of this course. Thank you for looking to engage with these controversial doctrines, which I know some of you have had questions about or even have taken different doctrinal stances than we do as pastors of the church.
And that’s okay. We’re just so glad that you’re willing to engage with us on this. You’re willing to hear our arguments. You’re willing to submit questions.
We might not have necessarily convinced you all of our different positions, but that’s okay. As long as you have that submissive spirit and you’re continuing to look to learn in the Lord, that’s fine by us.
But again, thank you for being part of this course with us. We’re encouraged by your participation here and we pray that the Lord will continue to use these things we’ve talked about to bless you and to bless our whole church.
I want to give special thanks to my fellow pastors for being part of this course. I really asked them to do a lot—to teach basically a quarter of the course each—and they’ve got a lot of other things going on. So I know Pastor Greg’s not here, but my thanks to these two other men who are on the platform and Pastor Greg who was elsewhere this morning. But Pastor Crumbley, would you mind closing our time this morning?
“As long as you have a submissive spirit and are continuing to look to learn in the Lord, that’s fine by us.”
Oh, gracious and eternal God, we want to thank you for your word that is so rich and so beautiful. It is clear to us and it points us to you. And we thank you, God, that you have given us your spirit that groans and intercedes for us even when our prayers fall short or we are too weak to even open our mouths.
You are interceding for us. We know that Jesus is interceding as well. And so we just thank you that we are covered.
We pray, God, that these truths that we have talked about and others in your word would bind us together and that we would be unified as a body always looking to serve one another. And I just pray, God, that for the rest of our time together—a time of fellowship and our service a little later—that you will be glorified, you will be put on full display. And I ask this in Christ’s name. Amen.