Answers Bible Curriculum Unit 2 Lesson 20
This week in Sunday school is our Unit 2 review day. We first overview the main ideas of our last nine lessons (Creation to the Fall) and then go through some Bible Q & A. The questions include: “How do Jewish rabbis deal with Genesis 1:26-27?”, “Why did God care so much about a piece of fruit?”, and “What is the difference between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism?”
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all right if you can find your places we’ll get started good morning and welcome back to Sunday school we are we have reached our review day for unit two here’s our agenda can everybody hear me we good to go okay all right so here’s what we’re looking to do today we’re going to look back over our unit over the last nine lessons and reconsider some of the main points of what we talked about then we’re going to do some Q&A related to the Bible I’ve received some questions I’ve also thought of some questions uh myself related to the passages certain things that we weren’t able to talk about or get to so we’ll go through those questions have about eight of those and if you think of questions that are part of the review or part of thinking back over the main points or you want a clarification to something that I answered today then we can add in those questions and then if we have time and it’s okay if we don’t get to this but if we do have time if we get through all the questions and you don’t have any other questions then I have some book recommendations one of the things that I’ve really enjoyed about my time in seminary is that I’ve read some really great books and these are not simply oh Ivory Tower Ivory Tower Seminary just super intellectual books that are hard for anybody to understand no they’re actually really accessible and profitable books for any Christian so I’ve thought of certain books that I’ve really enjoyed that I think would be a benefit to you really to anybody and so if we have time I’ll talk about those at the end all right let’s pray and then we’ll get into our review Lord God I thank you for this time I thank you that we have this teaching and that we have your word so that we can we can know what is true and we connect wisely in the world and I pray that you make this review time profitable help me to be able to explain through these questions and Lord if there’s any way that I can be a greater benefit to the body with other questions or something else like that I pray that you might allow that in this time in Jesus name amen all right so where have we been this unit remember each unit is about 10 lessons let’s go back through this unit has primarily focused on creation we started with the Seven Seas of History you recall what the Seven Seas of History are this is that outline for understanding history from a theological perspective or history from a profound uh considering the most important aspects of History I going identifies seven specific events and all remember with the letter c so we start with Creation in 4,000 BC and then corruption in around the same time 4,000 BC these are the only two that we’ve gotten to ourselves in our study specifically but then it proceeds to catastrophe that is the flood and that’s around 2350 BC then confusion 2240 BC that’s the the Tower of Babel and then Christ around 4 BC the cross around 30 ad and then the consummation that collection of end time events that will wrap up human history and sum up all things in Christ so remember this outline not only helps us see our place in the world where we are in terms of history but it also is a useful way of framing the gospel because those seven events if you just go through them walk through them with somebody you’re basically going to declare the gospel because we were created by God we rebelled against God we have all these problems as a result and we’re under God’s Wrath but God sent his son Jesus Christ to save us which he accomplished through the cross and so if you repent and believe in Christ then you will be at the consummation you will be with him as one of his own but if you reject him then you will be an enemy who will be judged so anyways a useful useful framework to remember so we started with the seven seeds of history and then we proceeded with creation our first lesson God creates the universe or the next lesson God creates the universe we saw that the creation account given in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 is very straightforward and is sequential and the genre that best describes it is historical narrative this isn’t myth this isn’t just poetry this is historical narrative and it doesn’t at all and when we consider the sequence it doesn’t at all fit evolutionary theory then we talked about days and kinds we focused on that term day as it’s used in the Genesis 1 account and we saw that there’s really no other way to take it if you’re being fair to the text then as a solar day a 24-hour day we also talked about the concept of Kinds how plants and then in the next lesson when we talk about animals and man both plants and animals were created by God to reproduce according the kind never changing kinds showing variation within a kind but never trans transcending kinds which contradicts modern evolutionary theory speaking of animals and man we also talked about what makes man unique and that is he is made in the image of God now let me bring you into the review a little bit do you recall what is it what does it mean for man to be made in the image of God we did answer that a couple different ways but I think there is one overarching answer because remember the context of that statement in Genesis 1:26-27 is with man’s being established as a ruler of creation so being made in the image of God is best described as man being made an under ruler of God and imaging forth God as the ruler of all creation which makes man share sh the attributes of God which makes man a relational being just as God Is So to be made in the image of God is to be an under ruler kind of like a statue that an ancient king would set up to show everyone who the real ruler is and this being made in the image of God besides allowing us to know God and to enjoy in a sense of murder and you cannot even insult another man why because he’s made in the image of God because of God’s dignity and because man has made in the image of God we dare not do those things so we talked about animals and man we also talked more specifically about Adam and Eve here we moved into the Genesis 2 account which is not an alternate account this isn’t a competing account it’s just an expansion on what Genesis 1 says and there we talked about how the creation of man and woman also does not fit with an old Earth or evolutionary understanding of Origins and we also saw how that account is so foundational for many aspects of Life Today gender sexuality marriage work they all find their origin in Genesis 2 or their explanation in Genesis 2 and also in Genesis 1 and these were not merely the the things we see there are not merely suggestions they actually communicate God’s design to which we must conform if we are going to be obedient to God then we talked about dinosaurs and dragons if you remember I was tried to emphasize that dinosaurs and dragon-like creatures certainly existed and that does not contradict the Bible that does not destabilize a young Earth understanding of origins in fact dinosaurs existed from what we can tell from the scriptures they exist at the same time as man because they’re mentioned in the scriptures we saw that in the Book of Job with Behemoth and Leviathan then we talked more broadly about the age of the Earth and we saw why we consider the Earth to be 6,000 years old why we believe in a young Earth and that comes from the scriptures that comes specifically from the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies and I presented to you that those genealogies do not contain gaps there’s no no good reason to infer gaps therefore we can use the time information there given by Moses and along with other time information in the scriptures to establish the age of the Earth so even if you infer gaps hope you remember that the Bible precludes an old Earth understanding you can’t get an earth more than 20,000 years or so even if you do infer gaps but I’m trying to emphasize to you that there there isn’t a good reason to do so these are unique genealogies in the Bible that do not contain gaps also talked about radiometric dating which is commonly asserted as a as a strong support for an old Earth understanding and why that dating method is so Reliance on assumptions and when those assumptions contradict the Bible there’s always going to be problems we also talked then about being stewards of God’s creation we focused in on man as an accountable ruler before God and how he was given dominion over the animals and over the Earth and all its resources but even as the as man fell and as the world was cursed that accountability for man’s rule of the earth continued and we talked about principles of stewardship related to the earth and its environment for Christians today and we also talked about the ideas of global warming and climate change those terms are often used synonymously even though they technically refer to slightly different things and that’s probably been more in in your attention lately because of the polar vortex you’ve seen discussions about that it is a lot of explanations related to global warming they say oh see this change in the environment this change in the climate is due to global warming and then they have their explanations but I hope hopefully you remember that we should have a lot of caution when it comes to the assessment of that issue those issues from both sides not simply those who are trying to be so alarmist about global warming but also those who try and downplay it we just need to learn more and we need to be aware of biases in explanations offered by people in the end remember that our stewardship of the earth is related to how we think about our fellow man we want to do what’s truly loving to our neighbor then finally our last lesson we talked about the fall corruption sin enters the world we saw how Adam and Eve fell we saw how Satan specifically used his strategy of Temptation on Eve and we saw how that strategy is essentially the same today both against Believers and unbelievers but we also saw how the gospel was previewed we’ll talk more about this but even in that extremely dark time we saw how the Lord unveiled the light of the gospel and it is even brighter today it is the same gospel but explain even more clearly today so that’s where we’ve been we’re going to transition now to a question and answer time but just going through those different lessons do you have any questions okay well if you think of more based on that brief overview or if you think of more as I go through the questions I already have set feel free to raise your hand get my attention and then we’ll try and include that question too so I have about eight questions we’re going to go through each one of these and some of them will take a little bit more explanation on others but Lord willing this be to you so question number one what is the rabbi’s interpretation of Genesis 1:26-27 this question actually came up in our Sunday school class but I didn’t know the answer I just said that this would be certainly a puzzling passage and what what verses am I talking about the ones that say let us make man in our image where God is using that plural pronoun the first person plural pronoun to speak about himself in creating man I actually did a little bit of searching and I found the different explan offered by Jewish rabbis across the centuries about three different explanations three ways they try and deal with this passage without admitting a tri and understanding of God first of all this kind of interesting the rabbis will say well clearly God is Not Triune or plural in himself because he’s singular in the context it says it refers to God in a singular way but I think that’s not that helpful because like well yeah well that’s the whole point of why it’s strange that he uses a plow pronoun here to describe himself but then they go on to say uh different rabbis offer different explanations what does it mean when he says let us make man in our image well God is talking to the angels this is one explanation God is referring to them they say well why would he refer to the angels they’re not man’s not being made in the image of God oh they say this is because God was modeling humility he was asking the angels to contribute their counsel uh their advice for how he’s going to create man now this is not because God actually needed any counsel or because the Angels were actually going to offer any advice but God wanted to model humility because man was to be humble before God and so God wanted to model humility by addressing the angels and saying let us make man in our image do you have anything to say I don’t think that’s very persuasive but that’s one explanation another explanation is that God was talking to the earth when he says let us make man in our image he was actually talking to the ground he was talking to the very materials from which he was going to make man so he says Hey ground Earth let’s make man in our image or a third explanation is that God is talking to all creation man is considered to be the Pinnacle of creation and so God is addressing all of creation and all its different qualities you know strength power uh wisdom things contained in the creatures throughout creation they’re all symbolically going to contribute it God says let us make man in our image contribute all of these different qualities that are going to find their Pinnacle in man and let us make man now I don’t think any of those explanations are very very persuasive because let’s face it in the end God doesn’t say man is made in the image of the ground or man is made in the image of all creation but man is made in the image of God not in the image of angels but we can understand why they would have to turn to these explanations because really what can you do with it without a plurality or a trinity in God anyways I wanted to share that with you question number two was Satan cast out of heaven when he rebelled this kind of stuck in my craw a little bit in the last lesson you may have noticed when I was talking about the fall of Satan I said that he was thrown down or cast out of Heaven poetically that is true but technically that is not true and so I want to clarify that even after Satan’s rebellions against God Satan’s Rebellion against God he still had access to heaven and how do we know that yeah Dwayne is God uh were actually spoken about that they’re communicating um in job and in other places as well right so the Book of Job is very clear Satan goes right into the into God’s presence and he has this conversation with god in which he brings up or in which God brings up job and you’re right Dwayne in other places too we see access to the Heavenly realm or Realms is granted to Satan and the demons Ephesians chapter 6 you remember that passage that talks about spiritual warfare it says we don’t war against flesh and blood but we war against the spirits of wickedness in the heavenlies in the Heavenly places so it’s not that they have the same glorious position in heaven that they did before but apparently Satan and his demons are not barred access so they have not been thrown down but the the Bible is clear in the Book of Revelation that there will be a time in which their access is restricted when they are thrown down that same passage I alluded to last time that identifies Satan as the dragon and refers to the dragon with his tail sweeping a third of the stars of Heaven which I believe is a a description of what Satan did in the past later on in that passage it describes what Satan will do and what will happen to Satan in the future one of those things is that he after Waring with the Angel Michael and other angels in heaven he will be thrown down he will be cast down to the Earth and there’s even a comment in that passage that says that says something in relation to that now the accuser of our Brethren has been thrown down and he has come to the Earth with great wrath because he knows his time is short I think some do try and apply that to what happened to Satan in the past but I think the description really fits best with what is going to happen in the future that will be in the in the last days right before Jesus comes back Satan will be cast down from heaven so technically right now not cast down but he will be cast down and he will be dealt with totally in the consummation right so that was question two question three why was Eve not weirded out by a talking snake you this is something that skeptic might bring up oh you believe the Bible you believe this thing with a talking snake isn’t that isn’t that ridiculous well why doesn’t she react to a talking snake why doesn’t she surprised by that what would you say yeah Dwayne in creation and so everything’s very new she hasn’t had experience to uh interact with all the animals and see what they do and what they don’t do yeah I think that’s a great explanation DNE just repeat what you said this is very early in the history of the world this is very shortly after creation everything’s new and so she might not have been surprised by a talking animal because you say oh here’s just another new thing in the end we honestly don’t know why she reacted to the snake the way she did was she surprised and the Bible didn’t really tell us about it maybe but I think what Dwayne mentioned is completely plausible that everything is new and fresh and so it didn’t didn’t seem that out of the ordinary didn’t seem that strange because everything is wondrous so it just doesn’t really affect the believability of this account number four why did God care so much about a fruit it’s another thing that people bring up you say that all of us are doomed the whole human race is doomed to hell because two people way back when ate a piece of fruit I mean how can you believe that what kind of God do you believe in certainly eating of the fruit does seem trivial if you isolate that act from the rest of the Bible’s context but think about what the fruit this forbidden fruit actually represents it eating the fruit represents a repudiation of God total Rebellion against God whereas not eating the fruit represents total trust in God total submission to God in God’s wisdom he decided that with this prohibition this early command to not eat of the TR the of the tree and its fruit on the knowledge of Good and Evil the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and its fruit God was giving a man an opportunity to exercise faith in God and this was actually for man’s good just as today when we’re given commands or when we look at the commands of scripture and we choose to obey them that’s actually for our good because all of God’s commands are good and it’s the way that we enjoy God we testify every time we obey God God you are worthy God you deserve my trust I love to do what pleases you so when you say not to do this thing I will not do that thing and when you say to do this thing I will do that thing because this is how I get to Worship You So in this early prohibition along with the other commands given by God to Adam and Eve in the beginning it was actually an opportunity for Adam and Eve to be blessed as they submitted to God as they trusted God now God God could have conceivably used another way to test and to allow Adam and Eve to exercise Faith but he chose the fruit and I think it also we can see some of the wisdom of the Lord in that and that it’s very it’s a very clear picture you eat the fruit you Rebel you don’t eat the fruit you trust God and Obey it makes the distinction very very clear ultimately the fall is not about the fruit it’s about what it represents whether you follow God or you repudiate God whether you understand and testify that God is worthy or you exalt yourself to become in an attempt to become like God and in God’s wisdom that said this is the way it’s going to be this will be the best way to do things because that’s the way he did it all right number five and by the way if you if you think of a question or if you have a clarification as we if you like a clarification as we’re going through just raise your hand yeah Ro we just got what you just got through answering there with respect to the fruit and that is that as you correctly pointed out it was it was the attitude of the heart of what was going inside the minds of Adam and Eve at the time when you put into words I mean say it right out loud what was going on in the minds and the hearts of Adam and Eve when they took that fruit but they were really saying was as you pointed out they were saying I don’t believe you God God I don’t trust you I don’t repudiate your word I don’t I can’t trust what you’re having to say I would trust this snake but I don’t trust you or your word when you put it into words like that write out loud then you understand a little bit more fully the seriousness of what uh what their actions uh represented and it’s the same with us today too whenever we violate uh God’s word we’re saying God I don’t care what your word has to say I’m going to do what I want to do when we put into words like that and vocalize it for for everyone to hear all of a sudden the serious of it seriousness of it impacts us that much more yeah that’s a great observation Roy thank you for that let me just briefly restate what you said that when you put into words what Adam and Eve were essentially doing and essentially saying with their eating of the fruit they were saying they didn’t trust God they didn’t want God and they wanted to do their own way you see how you see the heinousness of their rebellion and I I love the connection you made to that’s essentially the same thing that’s happening today I’m sure people could say and people do say oh why would God give this command why would God send a person to hell for this one thing they they used a curse word or they uh they had sex before marriage but why is that a big deal I mean it’s just a little thing why why is God so so strict about that or just one sin to send somebody to Hell forever but I think it goes exactly back to what you’re just saying Roy and that is it’s what’s being declared essentially in every one of those acts which is God you are not worthy God I don’t trust you God I have to rely on a source outside of you either from my own thinking or the thinking of of people in the world and that blasphemy against God that repudiation of God is what his Holiness cannot handle what his glory cannot handle he says I will not give my glory to another I will not I will not um one verse the Bible talks about his eyes being too pure to look on wickedness when we really see what’s going on in each sin it’s the same as it was in the beginning there’s profound and disgusting declarations that we all make against God when we sin even as Christians right and this is why when we think about what we’ve really done or what we’re doing when we sin that we we are deeply grieved because we say I’ve received the great kindness and grace of God and yet in this moment of sin I testified that I had I wanted nothing to do with God I wanted to go my own way how could I as a child of God said that and this is one of the things that moves us to repentance if we have a Godly sorrow but praise God that he is such a God that even though he’s so holy and so committed to his own Glory he is also so kind and merciful so that when we repent and as a result of repenting and believing to Christ he says all those heinous acts of sin all that repudiation in me I don’t even remember it anymore because it’s been taken care because Christ has totally paid for it God chooses not to remember and he removes those sins because they have been paid for by Christ yeah thanks for that comment R right number five did man lose his under ruler status with the fall now sometimes we we see or hear language like this that God made man an under ruler but because of man’s fault man can no longer fulfill that role from God so is man still a steward is he still accountable to God is he is does he still have the role of an under ruler well certainly his role has been compromised no person even a believer can properly represent God’s Rule and certainly those who do not know God because they are slaves to sin but even for us as Believers we don’t do it perfectly if we were to properly represent God’s rule we would need to be able to do that without error and without sin but we still have the old man with us and certainly the Earth and the Earth as it’s filled with sin and as under the curse it is not as easy to rule but the Bible still indicates that man has this role of under ruler and he is accountable to God not only because of what Genesis 1 says but also consider what Psalm 8 says actually please open your Bibles and turn to Psalm 8 if you’ve been paying attention to the verse that appears with the title slides for the last couple lessons you’ve actually seen some of the verses or some of the words from this section actually there the psalm a is a Psalm of David and he makes a comment about creation through most of the middle of the psalm look starting in uh verse three Psalm 8:3 David says and following when I consider your Heavens the work of your fingers the moon and the stars which you have ordained what is man that you take thought of him and the son of man that you care for him yet you have made him a little lower than God and you crown him with glory and Majesty you make him to rule over the works of your hands you’ve put all things under his feet all sheep and oxen and also the beasts of the field the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea whatever passes through the paths the Seas so this is really interesting because David is making comment on creation and on man and he’s saying and he’s saying exactly the same thing what Genesis 1 says that God gave man dominion over the Earth and over all its creatures and this is an amazing thing because what is Man David says what is man God that you take thought of him and yet you have given him this exalted status so this text indicates that despite the fall man is still acting as an under ruler of God now I think this because man has fallen this is part of the reason that God’s judgment on man is so severe he says I gave you the task of Imaging forth me as a ruler and you were doing the opposite you were showing for us a very corrupted image I think about marriage this institution that God made just because man fell doesn’t mean that the marriage institution just fell apart and no longer applies God says no that institution will continue and I will hold you accountable for what you do with that institution because ultimately it reflects me and as we learn later on in the New Testament more clearly in the New Testament it illustrates it pictures the relationship of Christ and the church God’s own relationship with his people and so when someone is immoral or somebody pursues a homosexual marriage or other kind of deviancy related to marriage God says I’ll hold you accountable for that because you had the role you are you had the job of Imaging forth me and my own relationship to my people in your marriage now one thing though that some of you may be thinking about is that Psalm 8 is espcially applied in the New Testament to a certain person in Hebrews 1: 5-9 these verses are applied to Christ himself he was made a little lower than go or that the verses are applied to him and that he was humbled even though he has the role of ruler of all creation and of course this is referring to Jesus’s Incarnation now how how does that fit with Psalm 8 seems to be talking about man in general but it’s applied to Christ in the book of Hebrews the exact relationship of these two passages is a little bit puzzling but I think what is clear is that though we cannot any of us individually perfectly fulfill the role of under ruler or of Imaging forth God there is one man who is able to do that and that’s the man the god man Christ Jesus he is the perfect revealer of God he is the image of God uncorrupted and so when it comes to man being an under ruler our lord Jesus he will fulfill what no man was able to do before he will perfectly rule the creation he will perfectly Steward the resources of the earth and that’s why the Bible emphasizes that the Messiah he’s going to rule with Justice he’s going to rule with Equity he’s going to rule in righteousness so it’s not that man’s role of under ruler has been abrogated due to the fall it’s just that we cannot perfectly fulfill that role until the perfect man comes back to rule the Earth we certainly look forward to that day all right with these next couple of questions we’re going to get a little bit more a little bit more headyy here so strap yourselves in from where did Sin come sin is not a substance it’s not something that you can actually hold in your hands and say I’ve got sin in my hands symbolically maybe but essentially tangibly no so where’ it come from how did it come to exist the Bible certainly clear that God did not create sin God is not the origin of sin he is not the author of sin and a number of New Testament passages emphasize this most clearly James 1:3 when a man is tempted let not say I’m being tempted by God for God cannot tempt anybody nor is he tempted James 1:17 says further every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above coming down from the Father of Lights with whom there is no variation or shifting Shadow only good things come from God sin is obviously not good so God is not the author of sin and 1 John 15 this is the message we have heard from him and announced to you that God is light and in him there is no Darkness at all there’s no darkness in God therefore he can’t he could not have created sin sin is Darkness but God was able to create and did create certain beings that were able to sin and able to fall he did this with the angels Satan and the demons sinned and fell and he did this with man man also sinned and fell but this was not due to a flaw in their design it’s not like God created the Angels or God created man doomed to sin and we can see that because when God looks at creation at the end of the creation week when Angels would have been created and Man was created he said behold it is all very good and how can it be very good if there is a flaw in the design if there was a flaw in man or even a flaw in the angels and yet God was able to create them with the capacity to sin when Satan and his fellow demons rebelled sin entered into existence it appeared to be or it was a possibility before but then sin actually existed in their Rebellion still it had not entered the material Universe until Adam and Eve sinned when the first human sin then sin entered the world of man and thus the whole world felt the curse that accompanies sin this is just as Romans 5:12 says Romans 5:12 through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin so death spread to all men because all sinned so from where did Sin come you could say it came through Satan and his demons but it did not actually enter the material Universe until Adam and Eve sin God didn’t create sin but he created creatures that could sin and they did this leads maybe to a second question followup question was the fall then inevitable and this was raised a little bit at the end of our last class was the fall inevitable from one perspective no because of what we just said there was no flaw in man’s design or even the Angel’s design that doomed them to sin now even if someone says well they they had a certain freedom in their choosing and in their will and so there was always the chance that they might sin it’s just a matter of time until someone fell or someone led a rebellion against God but then again as I pointed out last class some angels never fell God prevented them from falling and when we get to the new heavens and the new Earth there won’t be an ability to sin even though we we will be exercising our Wills so from a certain perspective the fall was not inevitable we could could conceive that you Adam and Eve they could have chosen not to eat the fruit and would have had all these problems but from another perspective well the fall was inevitable why is that it’s because of what God because God is The Sovereign God and he’s working something out through all of history God is committed to his own Glory nothing happens apart from it being God’s will doesn’t mean he approves of sin but that does mean that he is working all things for his glory and for the good of his people God determined eternally to glorify himself through creation and Redemption and part of this plan this decree to glorify himself included the fall and included the rebellion of man this privileged creation of God this creation made in the very image of God it included their fall in one sense it could not have happened any other way we could say oh if only they hadn’t done that but God does whatever he pleases and whatever God chooses is the best thing that could ever be chosen because in God is utter Perfection total Excellence so the way things have turned out is exactly the best way for them to turn out because otherwise God would have God would be imperfect and his plan will be imperfect now again this does not excuse sin but it does show that in one sense the fall had to be for the ultimate glory of God and the good of his creatures now this does not compromise the will of God’s creatures as we’ve already said God cannot be blamed the Bible makes very clear God cannot be blamed for sin all those creatures who do sin even today they do exactly what they want to do and god holds them accountable nevertheless all of this was proceeding under God’s Sovereign plan now how do we fit that together how how can we satisfactorily combine those truths we can only do so to a certain extent when we talk about man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty as we’ve said many times in class there’s always going to be a certain level where we can’t go any further but we can hold to what scripture declares and scripture does declare both things God is just for judging sin man is fully responsible but God is Sovereign and bringing all things to pass including sin so one sense the fall was inevitable and another sense it was not because we’re talking about man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty now that leads us into our last question at least the one that I have and that is what is the difference between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism now if you’ve never heard those terms before might think I’m talking about some sci-fi aliens or an unpleasant medical condition but no we’re not talking about we not talking about either of those things these are older theological terms designed to answer answer a theoretical question about God’s Eternal decree now I’m going to try and explain through this uh in as simple a way as possible we talk about God’s Eternal decree talking about the Eternal Act of God in which he decided everything that is in the universe everything that that will be and the question is that theologians have when God made this decree what was the order of the things within that decree specifically what when did God choose to elect and reprobate in relation to the fall now many of you are familiar with the term elect and election that’s when God mercifully chose to save certain people and to bring them into salvation inheritance not deserved but God chose and therefore they will be saved reprobation doesn’t proceed exactly the same way but it refers to God passing over a God ordaining those who will not be saved those that God leaves to destruction so the question is in relation to when in relation to decreeing the fall in relation to ordaining that the fall would occur when did God choose to elect and reprobate man those who take a superlap ser position oh I should emphasize this this is not this is about the logical order this is not about the temporal order the the time order because this is an eternal decree there was no time there was no a temporal sequence but there’s a there’s an effort among theologians to determine the logical sequence super lapsarian say this happened before the decree for the fall and infralapsarian say this took place after the decree of the Fall so that is to say if we’re trying to think through the order of God’s decree logically that God says for a super laparan position God says I’m going to elect a special people for myself and I’m also going to allow or ordain that certain people not be my people and experience judgment and then God decrees I’m going to need an event to uh to bring about uh what’s to result in the separation of these people I I’m choosing my people first but now I’m going to need something to redeem my people from so I’ve chosen them but now I’m ordaining that the fall will be the event that will cause people to need a Redemption that’s the super lapsarian position infralapsarian says God ordains the fall first all right I’m going to create man and I’m and this event is going to take place in which they rebel against me and there’s a fault now I will elect Those whom I first mercifully save and I will leave others to destruction that’s the infralapsarian position now I think those terms are extremely unhelpful because who knows what Supra infra means anymore lapsarian you can kind of get the idea of lapse so that’s the idea of fall but Supra is before infra is after now you say uh this is kind of a theoretical abstract why is it important that’s a good question it’s considered important because this has to do with what are God’s ultimate priorities and whether he can be blamed as the cause of sin those who take a infralapsarian position position are trying to protect God from being blamed as the author of sin because if election is decreed before the fall then it sounds like God is forcing man into the fall God is making man fall God is making man sin but the Bible is very clear that God doesn’t make man sin so those who take an infr latarian position suppose that you’d have to have you’d have to have the fall occur first for a man to have a reason to be saved whereas those who take a super super latan position they are trying to emphasize what is God’s ultimate priority it is the it is to secure a people for himself to his own Glory so he started with the decree to elect and there’s no need to have the the decree of the Fall take place before the decree to elect because even if that seems like God might be causing people to sin it doesn’t this is just one of the things that our minds are not able to fully comprehend because the Bible’s very clear that he’s not the author of sin and there there are other reasons there are other arguments associated with both of these positions so oh and by the way there are number of variant of these views it’s not like there’s only two camps there’s variations even within you side and and even other views so who is right what is the correct position well there are good arguments that could be made for both sides God is clearly Sovereign Sovereign over all events including creation including election including reprobation and including the fall but he’s clearly not responsible for man’s sin all culpability Falls to man this is a difficult question even to attempt to answer and certainly it’s not a question worth dividing Fellowship over it’s not like if you find out someone in the church takes a name for a la position you say oh no I can’t be your friend anymore I can’t be your brother or sister we can’t even serve together no no this is certainly not one of those questions worth that in fact this may not really even be a profitable question at all the debate over lapsarianism might not actually be profitable it’s interesting that in recent theological disc discussion over the last 50 years or so there’s been a move away from this issue because many theologians have I think rightly found that this is a very speculative question with very little information from the Bible to actually go off of there’s not really a good way to answer this question and it’s not so helpful to even attempt to do so let’s face it in reality there was no logical order to God’s decree it’s not like God decided this and then he decided that that’s not the way God’s mind works God is able to comprehend everything at once so it’s not like he looked at creation he said all right then first I’m going to create and then let me see what I’m going to do no when he in his decision to even create he still had everything else that he was that he that he was going to do associate with that all in the same moment in his mind and this was an eternal decree there was no as there was no time to this degree it’s always been there it’s impossible for us to even really break down the order of it in our temporal experience we have to work through a logical order of things but not with God so again this question of trying to tease out the order and say oh this order then God might be responsible for sin I think that misunderstands the essential nature of God yes God is able to enter into time is able to interact with us in a way that is temporal and we can see the order of things but he’s an infinite being and his mind is Way Beyond us to try and pull out all the different parts of of God’s mind that is a that is probably a fruitless Venture we need to go off of what’s revealed in the scriptures and this is not really revealed it’s interesting also I looked at two systematic theologies in their comment on this question biblical Doctrine you know that’s the one produced by John MacArthur and the master Seminary and Richard Mayu this issue of infralapsarian versus super lapsarianism it only takes up a footnote on one page so that shows you that this isn’t considered that high highly important of an issue if you’re curious the biblical Doctrine book does take the infralapsarian position but again it doesn’t seem like it’s a super important issue more interesting I think is what Wayne gudam does in his Systematic Theology Wayne gudam produced an excellent Systematic Theology called Systematic Theology he does take a wishy-washy view in creation and he has a a view that we would not agree with when it comes to miraculous gifts but it’s an excellent excellent treatment of systematic theology and when it comes to infralapsarianism versus superal lapsarianism it also takes up only a footnote and the only reason he says that he put that footnote in there is he says because some people might bring up these terms even though ultimately I don’t think this is a helpful discussion it’s not one we can really answer and it doesn’t really doesn’t really profit us so I think this is emblematic of really the way theologians are thinking increasingly these days and that is this is this is too speculative of a discussion this isn’t really that profitable to pursue what we do know revealed from scripture is that God is Sovereign over all things and yet man is responsible man is responsible for his sin and how he relates to God and many of these things that we’ve discussed they all relate to what is called the problem of evil I even mentioned that I think in the last lesson what is the problem of evil it’s the question how can a good all good all powerful all wise God ordain evil we’ve partly answered that question a little bit and we’ll say more about it the problem of evil is technically not really a problem for those who believe the Bible it’s actually a greater problem for those who don’t believe the Bible because how can you explain what is obviously evil in the world if there is no God or if it’s not the god of the Bible but we’ll have more to say about this issue when we talk about the effects of the fall all right I know that was a that was maybe a little bit more difficult to Think Through but that’s the end of my prepared questions what other questions or what other clarifications or what other questions do you have or what other clarifications would you like to hear any other questions uh yes well with the problem of uh evil do you believe that God ordained it so that he would be able to show his creation his other side which is his mercy and kindness the question is do I think that God ordained evil so that he could show his mercy and kindness well thinking maybe that’s why he ordained evil so that he can show his other side which is his mercy and kindness to his creation oh yeah sure for sure so the question is did he evil so that he could show certain B of himself that he wouldn’t be able to show without evil and part of that has to be the answer or that has to be part of the answer for Why God ordained evil because that’s exactly what the scripture says you go to Romans 9 and you have this question this theoretical question well how can God find fault for who opposes his will and you may remember how Paul responds to that theoretical question first he says on the contrary who are you oh man to talk back to God you’re just you’re you’re like a pot who’s trying to ask the Potter why did you make me like this and then he goes on in the discussion to saywhat if God in order to show exactly what you said lynon his kindness his um his his glorious Mercy by choosing to save vessels of Mercy while enduring with great patience vessels of Destruction ultimately we know that God’s sovereignty over evil and his ordaining of evil is part of him showing forth and enjoying his glory including his Holiness his wrath his mercy and his salvation now that’s still going to take a little bit of working through some some explanation but at its heart or that is a key component of the answer so I think you’re totally right on there L other questions uh yes mag I have a question from one of my students that I couldn’t answer did the Garden of Eden exist after the flood did the garden even exist after the flood that’s a good question this is one of those things that’s not specifically mentioned in scripture so that’s why it’s harder to answer it would seem that it did not we can understand why it would not exist because the Earth is destroyed by water that’s the language of the flood from Genesis 6 to9 it’s certainly never mentioned again in the Scriptures it existed after the fall because there was the Angel and the Flaming sword guarding anyone from going back into the garden but since it’s never mentioned after that it seems that it was destroyed or it was removed or disappeared I think there’s a Jewish tradition that it actually went back up into heaven I wouldn’t go that far or it was transported to heaven it is interesting though and a number of theologians have have mentioned this this idea of the garden of God a paradise where one experiences intimate fellowship with God it is a theme that seems to reappear throughout the scripture though the garden itself no longer appears the idea of getting back to the Garden it’s like there are Illusions to that at certain points in the scripture now some sometimes I think this is open overplay over interpreted but it’s interesting that what do we see in the new heavens and the new Earth the tree of life and there’s fruits and there are leaves and there’s the water it’s in some ways reminiscent of the garden so I think that is interesting but to get to your specific question probably the garden no longer existed After the flood I think that’s a good inference but of course that’s not specifically said in scripture there I question um so when you say that uh God chose the best possible world uh does that it sounds to me that that maybe would constrain God’s will or constrain God’s Freedom as though there could have been a possible world that he could have ordained where there wasn’t a fall where man had never fallen into sin how does that not restrain God’s uh freedom and choice okay that’s a great question but all right we’re this we’re going to get a little bit more theological here how how does the idea that God the way God created the world the best possible world how does that not impinge on God’s Freedom how does that not constrain God in a way that would limit him as God well we certainly know that God is in one sense constrained there are certain things that God cannot do right and this is clear in the Bible God cannot lie God cannot deny himself God cannot give his glory to another we say oh well God’s limited well he’s he’s limited by who he is God is the perfect all good all knowing all powerful God so there just certain things that he cannot do now when we talk about God’s freedom and God’s will there theologians often make a distinction between and and I’m forgetting the precise terms now but things that are absolutely necessary to God and things that are less necessary one for example in the scriptures what does God say about man’s need or God’s need in relation to his creation he says if I needed something I wouldn’t ask you because all the Earth all the world is mine so God doesn’t need creation as if he needed food or needed drink or even companionship this is something that we often try and protect ourselves against we we say God didn’t create God didn’t save because he was lonely you no God is self-sufficient God is independent God doesn’t need creation he was perfectly satisfied in the Trinity but there is also this truth that God does whatever he pleases and what pleases God is to glorify himself and to enjoy his own Glory that is essential to God that is his nature he in a sense he has to do that so God determined in his wisdom that to enjoy his glory to Revel in himself to display his glory he he was going to to create and he was going to redeem in one sense that was not necessary but another sense because of who God is and because he’s determined to glorify himself it is necessary with a with maybe not a capital N but with a with a less a lesser sense of necessary because that’s what God chose to do if God if that wasn’t the best thing to do then God wouldn’t have done it because God has always committed to his own Glory now again we’re getting getting into territory that’s a little bit difficult to describe we know that on the one hand God is God doesn’t need anything outside of himself yet everything God chose to do it is it is part of who he is as my as my theology teacher likes to say you cannot separate the acts of God from who he is and I believe it’s God’s drive his necessary and good drive to glorify himself that has caused creation and Redemption to proceed exactly the way it does so in that sense I still say it couldn’t have happened any other way now yeah so perhaps we could refine that a little bit but I think essentially that what what I’m saying to you I’m I’m satisfied with what I’m saying to you that that even though God is Not constrained by his creation and creation is not necessary to God God must do certain things because of who he is that’s a good question if you have other questions oh I guess we don’t have time for the last thing I was going to do uh we’re coming down to the end of our time if you have other questions based on what we talked about today or something else related to the Bible or Theology of course I’d love to hear it from you do my best to answer the question and you can just send me an email DAV kapos gmail.com if you’re truly interested and we don’t have time to go through it now if you’re truly interested in some of the the book recommendations some of my favorite books from Seminary you can just let me know and I can send you send you that information some good books on counseling parenting prayer and other topics and I’d be happy to give that to you but that’s it for today next week we’re jumping back into our study of the Bible in Genesis with the fall I’m going talking about the effects of the Fall what were the negative effects on creation on man because of the fall but also and this goes a lot right alongside with what we’ve been talking about today how was actually a great benefit going to come out from the fall how was a triumphant gospel going to be declared at the fall and then later realized in history we’ll talk about that next time but let’s close with a word of prayer well Lord God we’ve we’ve broached a number of topics God where we have to say at least some sense with the psalmist I’ve stilled and quieted my soul like a wean child with its mother because I’m encountering things that are too wonderful for me they’re beyond my ability to fully comprehend and we think about your decree we think about who you are as a god who’s self-existent independent does not eat anything and yet committed to your own Glory you see God that you’re a being Way Beyond us yet everything you’ve chosen to do is good and right and we’re so grateful that as vessels of Mercy you have shown us abundant kindness and you will show us abundant kindness we’ve only just tasted of your goodness and Glory but you will lavish It On Us in the days to come when we are with you and in your presence we praise you for that God we never deserve this we deserve to be left to destruction because of all the repudiation that we have done of you all the blasphemy we’ve done of you with every sinful act we’ve done and every sinful thought we we’ve thought that you’ve been so kind to us Lord I pray that a greater com a greater vision of you in your glory a greater appreciation of you as the as the Transcendent yet relational the holy yet merciful god I pray that that would be part of each person’s understanding today I pray that you bless the rest of the worship and instruction of Calvary in Jesus name amen all right thank you all see you next week