In this special question and answer lesson, Pastor Dave Capoccia first discusses the issue of identity in relation to LGBTQ assertions and then answers four submitted questions related to biblical counseling for marriage and parenthood:
1. What does the Bible say about dating?
2. What role should Christian parents play in their children’s dating?
3. Is is biblical to say that the husband is the “provider” for his household?
4. How should we think about situations in which both husband and wife work but the wife makes more money?
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All right, there it is. It is nine o’clock, so we will get started. Good morning and welcome to Sunday school.
Thank you for being here right at the start. Let me open in a word of prayer.
Heavenly Father, we are dependent on you every single day. We need you for the sustenance of our physical lives, but we also need you for the sustenance of our inner man, our spirit. So God, I pray that you’d feed us with more of your word, feed us with more of Jesus Christ, and allow me to give some practical instruction today. Help me to be able to explain this well in Jesus name. Amen.
All right, we’ve made it to our final lesson in our biblical counseling for marriage and parenthood Sunday school class. Today is the Q&A, Biblical Counseling questions and answers. often I did not leave time for questions in my course at the end of each lesson. So today hopefully can make up for some of that. I have received several questions from the class and I have prepared some answers. But before we get to that, let’s go over your previous week’s homework one last time.
So last week I asked you to read Evan Leno’s essay, Biblical Sexuality and Transgender Sin from the Journal of Biblical Soul Care and to write down five observations or questions to share.
So, what’s something that you wrote down or had a question about?
Yeah, Leela.
Okay.
[Music] Okay.
So, one that the church as a whole really needs to address the goodness of God’s distinctive design and that it seems that the ancient of bad kind of still has crept into the Um, and example of that is the way that we we worship musically. We’re very shy about physical expression.
So that was one point that early on adults and children learning about the goodness of physicality of God in us.
So that’s starting out a very key factor seem to be that God clearly through physicality whether we’re male or female.
Um and so the mind is what needs to be transformed not the other way around.
So our thinking about it so you don’t that was a very interesting point that those who are struggling or submitted to this trans transgender thought it’s in their head if they’re this or that.
They’re not going by um what’s obviously been determined by God.
So, let me before you go on, let me summarize what you said so I don’t forget it. So, first of all, the point that this was maybe a drier read is fair. I was uh debating whether I should assign an essay or not as opposed to an article or a chapter because yes, it is definitely more academic. But hopefully you all found as Leela did that it was still valuable and that that fundamental point that plays into this question of how do you respond to people struggling with transgenderism? One of those main pain, one of those main points, one of those main things that we have to deal with is that physicality matter. the physical world is not bad. It’s not something that we had to escape from or to um somehow bring into line with our mind. It’s actually good. It’s part of God’s very good creation. And it does, as you made a point, Lea, it actually touches on a number of aspects of the Christian life. I may have shared this in another class, but I remember one of the points that one of my theology teachers made in seminary is that Christian Platonism affects the way we understand the Bible and even our esquetology.
If you envision the eternal state or if you envision the the final destiny of Christians is as just some sort of spiritual reality where and I’ve heard it articulated this way. Time stops and you just stare at Jesus Christ and you’re just filled with filled with joy and wonder and that’s eternity.
Well, that view partially based on things that are true in the scriptures totally discounts the goodness of the physical world that is even coming in the future. God is not taking us to a spiritual kingdom where there’s nothing physical. No, it is a renewed world.
It’s a new heavens and a new earth with physical aspects at which we in which we dwell in which we appreciate the goodness of the Lord. However, we don’t want to go too far the other way where we say, “Oh, it’s all about physical enjoyment. The Lord is not really my joy. It’s just about the good things that he gives us.” That’s not true either in the eternal state. But we can appreciate how those things can fit together because they do right now. We appreciate God’s physical world. But we don’t use that as the ultimate gift. We actually see God as the ultimate gift even through the physical gifts that he gives us. And now you were talking about with transgenderism, everyone um I can’t remember if you said that article. It was something else that I read from Heath Lambert. But everyone recognizes that what a person struggling with transgenderism is going through is a problem. But nobody no the problem with this problem is that people are not sure.
People divide over what do you do about the problem and the the world’s view the popular view right now is okay let’s bring the body in conformity to what the mind thinks and feels. Whereas biblically speaking we see the problem is not with the body. Your body’s not bad. The problem is the way that you’re thinking about it and relating to it.
So, it’s the heart that needs to change.
It’s the mind that needs to change.
Okay. Did you have one more point?
Yeah.
I had a couple, but because of what you just said, I’ll just just end with the last one about the heart that um to wrap it all up. The worshipful disciplehip um it points to the worshiping of the creator. So, it’s still like with all the counseling lessons has to be with the heart and that only the in the heart can um can bring about the change that that we need and that that we all has to point to the creator and out of love for him um we obey his word and those bring about the changes and then I just wrote that it doesn’t make it easier but it makes it possible yeah and you see that even with something as maybe what seems extreme to us as transgenderism. I feel like I should be a boy when I’m a girl or I’m a girl when I’m a boy. That becomes a matter of faith. Do I believe that my creator is good and he made me just the right way? And that is really the only answer you. It is a matter of the heart.
And it’s one that as you said, Leela, it may not always be easy for somebody to accept. And yet, because of the Lord’s sure word and because of the Lord’s powerful spirit, that is the only way.
That is the only way to deal sufficiently with hard issues like this like transgenderism.
Yeah, in general I think that’s true.
Obeying God’s word isn’t easy. And yet and we still don’t want to discount what Jesus says, “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.” So in some ways it is easy, in some ways it’s hard. It’s going to cost you a lot. It might be painful, but if you are willing to embrace the truth and the loveliness of Jesus Christ, it becomes something where you say, “Well, I couldn’t do anything else.” That’s something that as we grow in the Lord, it does become easier. But anyways, those are some good things that you shared. Other questions or observations? Yeah, Tony. actually immediately another to approach it compassionate not to discard but that we have to always remember because again we were on lost we didn’t know ourselves had to bring us to this place so amen so a good reminder not just with this particular sin but with anybody who’s struggling with any type of sin and one sense that sin is grievous, even outrageous at times. But as the scriptures say, you too were once deceived. You too walked in the lust of your flesh. You too had a broken mind like the other person other people still do. So you can’t come at them with this high and mighty standoffish like don’t get too close to me, you freak. Not at all. It is with compassion. It is with a desire to speak the truth, but it is in love. So yeah, those are definitely um good points. Yeah, Mark, I wonder if you could comment a little bit on stereotypes. And the reason I bring this up is um I read the book When Harry Became Sally, which is a really good book about kind of the history of the transgender moment movement. And um one of the things he mentions is that when we have stereotypes that are overrealized and we try to enforce that on people, that can kind of drive into even more confusion in this area.
So for example, there are there are women who are more tomboyish, more masculine if you will. There are men who are softer, if you will. And as I thought about this, I thought like Jacob and Esau is a great example.
Jacob was a softer man. Esau was more typical man’s man outdoorsman, right?
And there was nothing sinful about either of those. I don’t think um yet I think when we try to impose non-biblical stereotypes that can have a negative effect on people. And I know reading that book really kind of opened my eyes to walking with people through that, being a little bit more sensitive to that.
Um I wonder if you have any thoughts or comments about that.
Well, I think you explained it pretty well, so I’ll just kind of summarize what what you said that playing into the discussion of LGBTQ issues, there is simply the issue of what is truly masculine and what is truly feminine.
And we have a stereotype in our culture and society. And I’m sure this varies all over the world, but in ways that can be helpful and unhelpful, that unless you’re this kind of man, unless you’re outwardly macho and you want to go outside all the time and you love machines or whatever it is, these stereotypes, then you’re a true man if you like those things. And if you’re not, you’re not really a true man. Maybe you’re actually gay or maybe you’re meant to be a woman and that’s why you don’t like these things. So we need to recognize that what is masculinity and femininity according to the scriptures.
It’s not a lot of what the culture says.
Though there are ways that we do conform to the culture to to make clear our masculinity and femininity and yet we recognize that there’s more than one way to be masculine to be to be biblically masculine and there’s more than one way to be biblically feminine. Not every way is legitimate but there’s more than one way. So we don’t want to fall into as you as you said and as as that book you mentioned said projecting certain stereotypes and then criticizing or even dismissing somebody if he doesn’t fit that stereotype and actually driving them away from the Lord for no good reason.
So yeah it’s good. I do want to say one other thing related to particularly the question of transgenderism but with LGBTQ issues in general and that is the problem of identity.
We talked about this in our last biblical counseling conference back in 2022, which was talking about the dignity of humans and how do you address those whose dignity is being questioned or disregarded?
And that touched on transgender and LGBTQ issues. I remember in one of the sessions the speaker pointed out people these days feel like they must be true to themselves that such is really the highest virtue that they can embrace. I’m not going to pretend to be something I’m not. Someone will say I will courageously choose to be before others my authentic self.
And so by this thinking, not only is it virtuous for someone to come out as gay or lesbian or transgender, but denying that other person’s identity is the greatest crime that you could commit. I am gay, someone might say. I cannot change that. I shouldn’t be ashamed of that, and you shouldn’t speak against that.
But if an LGBTQ person is willing to have a conversation with you about his identity, you could expose a fundamental problem in his reasoning.
After all, how does a person know that he in his core being is homosexual or is transgender?
What’s the answer?
What’s the answer that a person is likely to give you?
It’s what I feel. This cannot be wrong if I feel it so strongly. If I have these desires, if I feel this so strongly, it must be true.
But that’s a dangerous defense to give, isn’t it? Because you know what follow-up question that defense invites?
Well, how do you know that your feelings or your desires are true? How do you know that your feelings or desires are true and right? You may feel them strongly, but how do you know that they’re true and right? And what’s the only answer that a person can give outside of the scriptures?
I feel that my feelings are right.
It’s too strong. They have to be right.
I feel that my feelings must be right.
Maybe they they aren’t willing to articulate it. Maybe they don’t even know how how to respond. But that’s really the only response they can give.
H how how do you know that your feelings are right and true? I feel that they must be right and true. So the argument quickly becomes viciously circular.
And this is because the selfdefining self is always going to have a problem of knowing any truth about the self for certain.
The self cannot ultimately appeal to the self either by feelings or by autonomous reason, autonomous thinking within the self to prove anything about the self.
Because what if the self is wrong? The self must instead appeal to a trustworthy authority outside of the self to know anything for certain.
In other words, humans cannot define their own identities. You cannot define your own identity. We need someone else with unassalable trustworthiness and authority to tell us who we truly are.
But who’s the only person who’s the only one who fits these criteria?
God. He’s the only one perfectly trustworthy and the one with total authority who can tell us who we truly are. And how does he tell us who we are?
Through his word, through his scriptures. According to God, no matter who you are, no matter what you feel, you are not innately homosexual or born into the wrong biological sex. You are an imagebearer and underruler of God, radically corrupted by original sin. And thus you now desire to live autonomously from God, independent, separately from God, and to follow your own varied, broken, and sinful desires.
That’s who you are. Indeed, what you feel so strongly only makes real sense once God explains you to you.
Yet, when God saves a person, he gives that person a new identity.
You are no longer what you were. You are a new creation in Christ, a restored image bearer and under ruler of God, now being conformed into the image of God’s son, Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, the old sinful nature, the flesh, while still attached to you, is not you.
You have been set free from sin and death so that you may put to death your old ways, kill the old ways, and live holy and new in Jesus Christ as you anticipate your inheritance in God’s kingdom. That’s you. That’s your new identity in Christ.
So you see, felt identity is no real defense for LGBTQ living or really for any sinful lifestyle.
felt identity actually points to the real issue as well as the real solution.
You must be begotten from above. You must have Christ make you new.
Anyways, I thought that was a point worth making and I appreciate the points that you also made from the article. I hope that was helpful to you.
Yeah, sure.
backdressing.
Um, it shows that the problem was present and evident back then or Moses wouldn’t have written it.
Yeah, that’s a good point, Lea. So, it’s not like LGBTQ issues that we deal with today are totally new. Though there might be something unique about the form in which it appears in our society at its basic level. Well, no. This has been the problem of man going back to the garden. We’re always because of radical corruption, we’re always looking to go our own way apart from the wisdom and design of God. And if you just study ancient cultures or if you study various cultures around the world today, you will see homosexuality, crossdressing, other things that we might think of as extreme as actually being present there.
Now, if you get from more familiar with the New Testament world, Greco Roman culture, homosexuality was a huge part of those cultures as well, though in a slightly different form than we have today. In some ways, it was more disturbing because it was quite normal for for men to have homosexual relations with young boys.
So, the issue isn’t new and the Lord the Lord’s word speaks to heart no matter which age a person lives in. But anyways, that was your last official homework assignment. I do have some optional homework assignments though for you to pursue.
Couldn’t end my course without giving you a couple other things to read. I believe that the you will be challenged and edified if you read both of these articles. So the first is your assignment, your optional assignment would be to listen to or to read Rosaria Butterfield’s testimony, Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. This testimony was given at the 2015 ACBC Biblical Counseling Conference on Homosexuality, and I I put the link to it in the email to those who are on the class list. Now, some of you may have heard of Rosaria Butterfield before. She is a former professor of English and women’s studies at Syracuse University. She’s also a former lesbian and former LGBTQ advocate, but she’s now a Christian and she’s married to Kent Butterfield, a reformed Presbyterian pastor in North Carolina. and she’s a homeschool mother, author, and speaker. She wrote a book about her experience of coming to Christ. It is similar to the testimony that I’ve pointed you to. The book is called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert: An English Professor’s Journey into the Christian Faith. But her conference testimony is a more compact retelling of her conversion journey. And I think you will find her testimony, if you read it or listen to it, very fascinating as well as challenging to some of the assumptions that we Christians often make about homosexuals or about evangelizing homosexuals.
And of course, the testimony also is an amazing witness to the God of glory we serve and the power of the gospel in Jesus Christ. So I do recommend that you read that or listen to that. The second one I’d like you to read. This is just available by reading. It’s an article from Pastor John Piper entitled for single men and women and the rest of us.
And the link to that article again is in the class email. Many of you know John Piper, longtime pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He’s now a famous Christian speaker and author as well as seminary chancellor. The article I’ve assigned you originally appeared as a forward of the book Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, a response to Evangelical Feminism. And that book is fine on its own, but I want you to pay attention to what was the forward. What’s unique about this article is that it represents instruction and extensive testimony about what it’s like to be a committed single person for Jesus. Our marriage and family biblical counseling course understandably is not focused on single people.
Nevertheless, I do believe that single people could use special instruction, especially if those persons are not just temporarily single, but either by determined choice or by God’s providence, they are going to be permanently single.
Does Bible does the Bible give special instruction to them, special encouragement to them? It does. And I believe this article is a good instru a good introduction to that kind of instruction and is useful not just for those who are single but also for those who are married and looking to minister to single people. We don’t want to forget about our singles. As with the other assignment I’ve recommended you will find the information of this article illuminating, challenging and ultimately driving you back to greater love and worship of Jesus Christ.
After all marriage is a part of this papistous life.
So even we who are married don’t want to make too much of it and make too little of Christ. So I recommend you read both of those articles as we end this course for your bonus edification.
Questions about these two assignments.
Okay. We took a good amount of time reviewing the homework. So I don’t know if we’ll be able to get to everything I prepared in terms of question and answer but we’ll see how far we can get. We are now turning to four questions. just four. Uh, you sent more than that. I I wasn’t able to get to all of them, but hopefully I can still follow up with some of you. I didn’t get to your questions to, but I’ve got four questions that I’d like to try and answer with the time we have related to biblical counseling and what we’ve covered in this course. And the first one is, what does the Bible say about dating?
What does the Bible say about dating?
This is a good question, but it’s kind of broad. So, I’m just going to try to outline the most important points in response. Let’s start by simply defining the term dating. What does it mean to date someone else? People use the word date and dating in different ways, but most commonly in this context of our course, to date means to engage in a social activity together with another person with the intention of evaluating each other’s suitability as a partner in a future romantic or marriage relationship. I’ll say that again. To engage in a social activity together with another person with the intention of evaluating each other’s suitability as a partner in a future romantic or marriage relationship. We commonly call these evaluating social engagements dates.
Now a date might take place before entering a formal and exclusive romantic relationship with another person that is becoming boyfriend and girlfriend or it might take place after entering such a relationship.
Thus a boyfriend and girlfriend who repeatedly engage in such evaluating social activities together are said to be going out or dating. Do you see how those terms fit together? Now, while dating is a customary step in forming romantic and marriage relationships in our society, is dating biblical?
Let’s take a step back and ask a different question. Does the Bible prescribe a specific way that a man and woman are to meet and get married?
Well, we do see that in the Bible. But just because we see something described doesn’t mean it’s necessarily prescribed, commanded, uh, meant for people to obey and imitate. I would argue that the answer to this question is actually no. We don’t see one way prescribed in the Bible for people to meet and marry. In fact, when the Bible describes, even as Stephanie was beginning to get to, when the Bible describes people in narrative getting married, we see there’s much variation in how those marriages come about and how they actually occur. We have marriages initiated by parents and we have marriages initiated by the bride or groom. We have marriages completed with the bride and groom hardly knowing each other. And we have marriages completed with the bride and groom already knowing each other and very much in love.
We have marriages in which the groom asks the father for the bride’s hand. We have marriages in which the groom asks the bride herself for her hand. And we have at least one marriage in which the bride asks for the groom’s hand. Looking at you, Ruth.
There are marriages in which there was a long betroal period which for the Jews was like being married except not living together or consummating the marriage.
And there are marriages that have no betroal period at all. There are marriages which feature no celebratory wedding. There are marriages that have one day of wedding celebration. And then there are marriages that have several days of wedding celebration.
I could list more variations but hopefully you get the picture. There’s a lot of variation to how people get married in the Bible, but these are all just descriptive. It’s not prescriptive. See, the Bible indicates that there is more than one right way for a man and woman to meet and marry. Furthermore, the reasons why people in the Bible get married the way they do often have to do with personal preferences, life circumstances, and most importantly, cultural norms, cultural expectations.
A case in point is arranged marriages.
Arranged marriages were extremely common in the ancient world. Not only because ancient cultures placed greater authority in the hands of the head of households than our culture does today.
And ancient cultures probably gave too much authority, but also because marriages back then had much more important social and economic implications than they do now.
You had to weigh whether you were marrying into a respectable family or not because not only would that affect you as a married person, but it would affect your standing as a family. You had to pay attention to whether the marriage would result in new wealth or land coming into the family or going out of the family and whether that was something that the family could afford or really wanted.
Thus, there was often more at stake in an ancient marriage than whether a couple liked each other and could produce children together and many other considerations. Therefore, within that time period and culture, arranged marriages made much sense. And there’s nothing sinful about having an arranged marriage, even if an arranged marriage came with certain disadvantages.
Similarly, there’s nothing sinful about not having an arranged marriage today, especially since we often do not have the same social and economic concerns in marriage as ancient people did.
So, we come back to the question, is dating biblical? Is this custom that we have in our society biblical?
Conceptually speaking, there is nothing wrong with our cultures custom and expectation that before getting married, a potential couple will spend time together in a series of social engagements meant to help the man and woman evaluate one another as to whether the two will make a good match. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing forbidden about that. There’s actually basic wisdom in that. Trying to gain knowledge about something so important before you commit.
The problem comes though and how ungodly society commonly goes about dating.
What do I mean? Well, commonly included in the evaluation of today’s dating is sexual intimacy. According to our society, to truly find out whether two people are a good match, they should, once their relationship has deepened to a certain level, try sleeping together and even living together.
But aside from directly contradicting God’s command regarding immorality and fornication, this common inclusion or this common openness to sex in dating, it confuses the goal of dating.
For many, dating is no longer about assessing a person for a future full companionship relationship.
Dating is the means to that full companionship relationship right now.
You’re going to enjoy it now without marriage and with less commitment.
So, while Christians need not reject dating as a concept, Christians must reject the world’s way of dating.
Now, how specifically should Christians date or court or whatever term you want to use for getting to know a potential marriage partner and coming to an agreement about pursuing marriage?
Well, the Bible gives much freedom in how to date or pursue marriage. Those people are going to have different preferences and arrive at different convictions that in most cases, well, not most cases, in many cases are fine before God. You have your own preference and conviction. that’s fine within certain parameters. There are certain biblical principles that no matter what your preference or conviction is that you as a Christian should follow and should help your younger brothers and sisters follow and even your children follow when it comes to dating. So I’ll give you seven of these principles briefly and these will be brief. We could spend the rest of the time talking about this but we have other things I want to get to. So seven principles for Christian dating. Number one, Christian dating should only be for the pursuit of marriage. And this is basically what I just said. 1 Peter 4:3 says, 1 Peter 4:3, “For the time already passed is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lust, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
We must reject the worldly idea that dating is just for fun or to enjoy enjoy a marriageike relationship. Now, dating is only for the pursuit of marriage. If that’s not your goal, you shouldn’t be dating. Two, Christian dating should seek to observe a person under a variety of circumstances.
Proverbs 18:13 says, and you’ve heard this verse many times by now, Proverbs 18:13, he who gives an answer before he hears it is folly and shame to him.
There are many different ways a Christian can proceed in dating, in getting to know another person. It could be by one-on-one dates. It could be on double dates. It could be on group dates. could include online dating.
Each of these have their advantages and disadvantages. They show different sides of a person better than other methods.
So, if possible, you don’t want to use just one type. You don’t want to observe a person in just one kind of scenario.
You want to get a more balanced view.
So, hang hang out maybe as in a group and also have times when it’s just the two of you. Making wise precautions even when you do that. Number three, Christian dating should only be for those who are ready or soon to be ready for marriage.
It should follow from principle number one, right? 1 Corinthians 6:12. 1 Corinthians 6:12. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
While our love and sex obsessed society promotes the idea that one should pursue a fulfilling romantic relationship as soon as possible, it is generally not profitable for teenagers to date.
Not only do teens typically lack the maturity to soberly evaluate potential spouses or manage the powerful emotions and desires that come with a dating relationship.
But also, teenagers put themselves into an acutely painful and spiritually dangerous position by falling in love with someone that they cannot marry for several, maybe even many years.
Not to mention, most teenage relationships don’t work out so they can spare themselves the drama and heartbreak.
Number four, Christian dating should only be with other true Christians.
1 Corinthians 7:39, 1 Corinthians 7:39, a wife is bound as long A wife is bound as long as her husband lives. But if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes. Only in the Lord.
We’ve talked about this before, but this is worth reemphasizing. We cannot make excuses for ourselves by saying, “Oh, I’m only dating. It’s not marriage.” Or, “Yeah, he’s spiritually weak, but I can change him.” Or, “There are no good Christian options around, so what am I going to do?” History, including biblical history, is replete with examples of people who became spiritually ins snared by romantic, sexual, or marital involvement with unbelievers.
Do not test the Lord by getting close to this sin in your dating. Just make that something right up front. I’m not going to date him. I’m not going to date her unless she’s a true Christian, not just a professing Christian. Number five, Christian dating should not Christian dating should avoid even a hint of immorality.
This comes right from the scriptures.
Ephesians 5 3 and 4. Ephesians 5 3 and four. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you as is proper among saints. But there must be no filthiness and silly talk or coarse gesting which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
Now, Christians will have to work out for themselves in a dating relationship wise boundaries for expressing physical affection. It’s not necessarily going to be the same for every person, every couple. But the question is not how close can we get without sin, but how far back can we stay to protect each other, give no hint of immorality to others, and honor the Lord Jesus Christ.
A good rule of thumb is if you couldn’t do something with your actual brother or sister, you should not try it with your boyfriend or girlfriend.
Number six, Christian dating should be realistic and not naive or idolatrous.
Ecclesiastes 9:9. Ecclesiastes 9:9 says, “Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which he has given you under the son. For this is your reward in life and in your toil and which you have labored under the sun.
Life is a vapor and so are you and so are your romantic and so is your romantic/marital relationship.
The world makes so much out of love and marriage. Treats it like the ultimate good, but it’s not going to be that. And if you’re looking for that, you’re going to be disappointed.
Christians should not be looking for the perfect person to marry. The person who’s going to fulfill all their dreams absolutely, totally, completely righteous.
He doesn’t exist.
Christians should instead look for a good man or a good woman who truly loves the Lord Jesus Christ.
These people do exist and Proverbs says they are worth more than jewels.
Don’t be like, “H, he’s pretty good, but what else is out there? I want that perfect person. You’re not going to find.” So, be realistic. Don’t be naive and don’t be idolatrous.
Don’t make more of marriage than God meant. And then finally, Christian dating should value the wisdom of godly counselors. Proverbs 11:14 says, Proverbs 11:14, “Where there is no guidance, the people fall, but in abundance of counselors, there is victory.” It’s customary in our society for two people who are thinking about dating or actually dating to become like Romeo and Juliet and just separate themselves from all other counselors because we’re in love. We know what’s really going on.
They don’t understand.
But you know how that story ended. It didn’t end well and that there’s something instructive about that.
Christians should not go it alone in dating and should not try to keep their dating relationship a secret. Rather, they should seek and benefit from counsel of others who are wiser and more mature, especially believers and especially parents.
Don’t wait to involve counselors until you’re engaged. Get their help. Get their insight all throughout your pursuit of a marriage partner before it happens as you start. Dwayne, you want to say something?
Well, that’s going to have something to do with the next question that we’re going to talk about. So, let me u let me table your question for a second. Your question is, what shouldn’t this also include recognizing the authority of the father? Because the next question I want to talk about is someone asked and I think it’s worth time answering. What role should Christian parents play in their children’s dating?
What role should Christian parents play in their children’s dating?
The short answer is that a Christian parents primary role in their children’s dating is counselor.
The longer answer is that your role and the effectiveness of your role will depend greatly on how close a relationship you’ve cultivated with your children over the years.
One reason I’m glad for this question is that it gives me an opportunity to show you a chart that I didn’t get to show in this course before. This comes from TED trips shephering a child’s heart book.
I’m sorry that that’s kind of a little bit grainy is the best version I could find of it online.
You see chart is pretty self-explanatory. Allow me to read some explaining paragraphs from Ted Chip’s book. This is from page 2011 going to 203.
Authority in this chart denotes what may be accomplished with your child because you are stronger, faster, larger, and so forth.
Influence represents the willingness of your child to place himself under your authority because he trusts you. Your role as an influence is one of helping him to know his needs and be honest with himself.
For example, your teenage child is impossible to live with. She is always snapping at everyone in her way. If you’re trying to wield authority, you may lay down the law. I don’t ever want to hear you say that again. You are grounded for the month. You can’t talk on the phone. I won’t have that around my house.
By contrast, if you are seeking to influence, you will move toward her with the gentle reproofs of life. I see you are having a problem with being a pleasant person. I love you and I want to help you learn to speak in ways that are constructive.
The one approach increases the sense of alienation and drives the teen toward associations that may be harmful. The other approach moves toward the child in love and gentle rebuke. It embraces and accepts. It urges the child to accept correction as a wise person. It doesn’t make the child feel like a fool.
Personal indignities must not be the condition upon which we rebuke our children.
As a parent seeking to shepherd, you want to influence your child to respond to things that are reasonable, drawn from insight into human character based on scripture. You are seeking to influence and provide counsel. You can accomplish nothing of lasting value simply by being an authority. You must seek the counsel and influence.
Yeah, it’s another par paragraph on page 203.
I am convinced that there are few times when a parent must demand that teens do or don’t do something. In the cases where every day is made up of demanding and requiring parents have not practiced biblical principles. A son or daughter who is expected to respond to demands or requirements is probably circumventing them and doing what he or she desires anyhow.
There’s more about that in other sections of shephering a child’s heart, but I give that to you as some helpful counsel even when it comes to this question of what role should Christian parents play in their children’s dating.
As a parent, you may be able to get away with simply using your authority, simply forbidding your pre-teen or early teen children from dating at all.
At some point though, both you and they are going to realize that you cannot really force them to obey.
They could sneak around your directives if they wanted.
So, what should you do?
You should counsel them. You should explain to them if they’re younger, why dating is not the wise course right now.
Show sympathy for any desires for companionship or pangs of loneliness or unrequited love. Listen to what they have to say. help them understand their hearts. Ultimately, appeal to them to accept and apply the wisdom of God’s word so that it will go well for them.
And when your children are young adults and actually able to date, you still primarily want to take on the role of counselor.
Hopefully, your child has some openness with you and talking about his or her dating interest. Help your child assess whether someone really is a good prospect to pursue. If your child expresses frustration at having no prospects or only a boyfriend or girlfriend who is disappointing, listen, read, help your child understand what is going on in his own heart, but ultimately give the sure counsel of the scriptures rather than your own opinion.
Though your experiences affirming the scriptures will often be clarifying or encouraging.
This is not to say that you won’t have any rules, any expectations that you want to see enforced, but primarily your role is counselor.
Now, how effective will your counsel be?
And how open will your children be in talking with you about these personal topics?
The answer likely depends on how much of a relationship you’ve already cultivated with your children and whether you’ve already been seeking to influence them by loving instruction.
If your children have learned over time that they can trust you because you love them and have their best interests at heart, they are more likely to open up to you about their dating life and more likely to receive your counsel.
Furthermore, if you have been modeling for your children a good marriage relationship, a happy marriage relationship with the other parent, they will have even more reason to seek out and to hear your counsel.
However, if your relationship is distant with your children because you have only sought to demand and enforce conformity to your authority, your children will probably not open up to you about dating. Or if they do, they will be much slower to receive your counsel.
If even at the stage of young adulthood, you still try to enforce your authority and forbid them from dating or from dating certain people or from getting married or else you likely will drive your child away and lose whatever relationship you already have.
So, we need to recognize that this is an inevitable reality, but not a bad one.
It’s one that as a child grows and becomes more and more of an adult is to be expected.
So even though to get back to to Dwayne’s question, even though the father the father and mother are authorities in the home, as long as the child lives there, authority is not something that they’re going to, especially as a child gets older and older, it shouldn’t be the thing that the parents hold up and say, “I’m the authority. You do what I say.” that’s not going to promote very much long-term benefit for your child.
Your role should be primarily as a counselor.
Now, as a child, on the flip side, if you are considering dating and you’re thinking about marriage, you do want to show honor to your parents and if at all possible, obey their direction. But this this is one of the things that begins to bring about that transition from under your parents authority to not under your parents authority. It’s kind of like an independence establishing move to pursue marriage or to be married to another person.
So you do want to as much as possible honor your parents authority, seek your parents approval. They may say, “We don’t think you should get married to this person. We don’t think you should get married at all, and you should take that counsel seriously.” This goes back to the homework assignment we first read.
Five questions for couples to ask in the pre-engagement period, but it’s going to be unwise.
No, I’ll say it this way.
I don’t believe and David Palson and John Yenko agree from that article. I don’t believe it is sinful if a child ultimately says, “I hear you. I hear your counsel. I take seriously your telling me not to go this direction, but I’m still going to get married to this person.” As a Christian, you should be very, very slow to go that direction. If at all possible, you want to persuade your parents. You want to make it so that they don’t need to give their disapproval.
Like I said, it’s a big deal to people who know you well, who have raised you all their lives, say, “We don’t think this is a good move.” But I don’t believe, even though culturally in the Bible there was more expectation that you will not get married without your parents authority, I don’t believe that is prescriptive for today. And I think that parents are trying to enforce that.
They’re going to create more problems in the relationship that are unnecessary.
Now, I’m going to move on from that. You might have more questions about that, but I want to get to some other things.
Number three, is it biblical to say that the husband is the provider for his household? Is it difficult to say that the husband is the provider for his household?
This is a good question. We talked about the roles of husband and wife in this class in terms of head and helper, leader and follower. But who’s responsible for bringing home the bacon?
Is work just for the man? Or might husband and wife work?
Might husband and wife work and both be providers?
To answer this, let’s back up and do a little bit of review.
In Genesis 21:18, God creates the first woman for the first man in the first marriage to be the man’s helper.
What Eve is to help Adam with is not specified in that original passage. She is to be his help. She is to be his assistance generally. And we talked about that in Genesis 21:8. This help is going to be suitable for her man.
She’s going to help him in precisely the areas that her husband or that men in general need help.
And in Genesis 1:28, we see some areas where a woman’s or wife’s help is envisaged, is envisioned. God commands and blesses both man and woman by saying, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth, subdue it, and rule over its creatures.” In other words, the creation mandate to function as representatives and underrulers of God on the earth. It applies to both men and women.
Man is given headship in this grand task, but the woman is to help the man accomplish it.
This means that a wife can and should help her husband in every area that this mandate applies. In other words, all of life. She should help him physically, socially, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and economically. You name it, the wife is to help her husband with it. And a wise husband will make sure to utilize his his wife’s help as God has gifted her.
But should there be a fundamental division when it comes to the tasks of husbands and wives? Find it interesting that the the specific phrase the husband is the provider or the man is the provider doesn’t appear in the Bible.
Though 1 Timothy 5’8, we’ll get to that a little bit later.
I think what is usually meant by this phrase when people use it is that the husband works outside of the home to provide for the family’s needs needs and the wife supplements this income with lesser work or only takes care of children at home.
And there is some scriptural warrant for this kind of thinking. Notably, when God pronounces the curse on the first man and woman after sin, the man is specifically cursed in his work. Genesis 3:17 and 19. while the woman is specifically cursed in marriage and in raising children. Genesis 3:16.
Furthermore, Paul repeatedly directs married Christian women in the New Testament to focus on work in the domestic sphere. That is raising children and managing the household.
That’s Titus 2:3 and 5, 1 Timothy 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:14.
Now, these commands do not mean that the wife should never leave the home, but that she should just sit at home and do nothing. Consider the contrasting example of the ideal, enterprising, and industrious wife in Proverbs 31.
But that whatever work the wife does, she still needs to prioritize taking care of the children and family.
Now why these differences in primary sphere if men and women are supposed to work together to fulfill the same creation mandate?
I believe the answer has to do with innate differences in design.
For example, God made men physically stronger so that they could do the most dangerous and difficult tasks. Moreover, God called husbands to be servant leaders, which means voluntarily suffering for the good of the wife and the children.
Thus, the husband is indeed designed by God to function as a kind of protector and provider. This would be what a servant leader does.
Meanwhile, God uniquely enabled women to bear children, giving them a special connection as mothers.
Furthermore, God seems to have made women more relational, more nurturing, more empathetic, and thus uniquely equipped for raising children and managing household relationships.
Nevertheless, there is crossover in these spheres. A wife still helps her husband with work and the husband still leads and helps with the household and children.
Consider, as we’ve seen, that parenting admonitions in the Bible are always given to fathers, not merely to parents. Ephesians 6:4 is one example.
Now, while the Bible does lay out these two primary spheres, the specific divisions of labor within a family will vary. A wise husband will delegate task and responsibilities to his wife according to her desires and abilities and seek to serve her in the tasks which he reserves for himself. It doesn’t say I’d like to do this. So you take all those things that I don’t like. It says what’s going to serve my wife best. I want to do those things. Moreover, he should invite her counsel and help in those tasks just as she should invite his counsel and help in her tasks.
But now a follow-up question and this is my last prepared question today.
Considering the man is designed by God to be the primary provider, how should we think of situations in both in which both husband and wife work but the wife makes more money?
Ah, the plot thickens.
Let me try and articulate the relevant biblical principles.
To reiterate, the Bible outlines spheres of primary activity rather than specific rules. The husband is the primary worker and the wife is the primary household caretaker.
As a husband, a father, a servant leader, a Christian man should seek to meet the needs of the family via his own work and free up his woman to focus on what God especially called her to do as a wife and mother. Similarly, the Christian woman should want to manage the children and household in such a way that she frees up her man to focus on his work and in meeting the family’s needs.
Practically this arrangement will mean that the wife will spend more time with the children and at home than the man does just as God has gifted her to do.
But these two spheres of primary activity are not firmly demarked.
They overlap.
Meeting the family’s needs may require the wife’s help working to a certain extent and raising the children will require the husband’s direction and help also.
It is folly for a husband to think he stops serving the family when he clocks out of work. There is still more necessary and godly service to be done at home. Yet his energy and abilities are limited. Cannot do everything.
Therefore, a wise husband will find out from his wife the most important ways he can serve her and the children so that she can handle the majority of the work happily and well.
He also needs to be setting the overall direction of the family upbringing and working to make sure that the whole family, especially the wife, stays spiritually healthy.
Now, all this does not necessarily mean that the wife does not have her own money-making job or that if she does, she must earn less than her husband.
The key principle is, are both husband and wife truly seeking to fulfill their primary callings from God?
Or does the wife’s job or the type of job she has or the hour of the job that she chooses to work at, do they substantively interfere with her taking care of her husband, children, and household?
If so, then they’re not fulfilling their primary callings from God and something needs to change. Or does the husband neglect working or devote himself over much to his job so that he does not truly nurture his wife and children? And he is not fulfilling his calling as God has given. and he must make adjustments.
It may be that a servant-hearted, hardworking husband earns less than his wife who also works.
Maybe because her job has simply been more successful. Maybe because he’s just getting started in a new field. Maybe because his job is more ministry oriented.
This is okay.
The situation is okay. And the wife should not respect her husband less simply for making less money.
Consider that Jesus did not support himself monetarily during his preaching ministry, but was instead according to Luke 81:3 supported by several prominent women.
Also, we have the notable example of Priscilla and Aquilla in the Bible in Acts 18:1-3 and Romans 16:3-5. These two were both tent makers. They both worked. Yet, the wife Priscilla is always mentioned first.
She appears, many commentators agree, she appears to have been the most prominent and perhaps the more successful of the two.
Yet, they both worked and they even had a church meet in their meet in their home.
Also, it’s worth mentioning that there is no reason that a wife should make less for a job just because she is a wife or just because she is a woman.
Some employers, even Christian employers, seem to think it’s okay to pay a wife less for a job because she’s not the primary bread winner.
I believe that is ungodly. Pay her what she has actually earned for her work.
Proverbs 31:31 says this, “Give her the product of her hands and let her works praise her in the gates.” Yeah. Contrast all that I’ve said thus far with a husband who earns less than his wife because he is selfish or lazy.
This is not a good reason to be in this situation. And a wife will find it hard to respect a husband whose low paycheck reflects his lack of diligence or his shoddiness in his works.
I think of 1 Timothy 5’8 which I mentioned before where Paul is addressing a situation where a man might callously refuse to support a widow among his relatives. Paul writes, “But if anyone does not provide for his own and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” That’s strong words. We could add the rule Paul Paul promulgated in Thessalonica. If anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat either. 2 Thessalonians 3:10.
Paul had to impose this rule because there were some Christians sponging off the generosity of others when those Christians were more than capable of working to support themselves.
Certainly, therefore, a husband should seek to support his family to the best of his ability.
Now, it’s worth mentioning also that we must beware of cultural pressure on this topic, this topic of providing for the household. Plenty of couples, including Christians, will protest today unless we both work full-time. Yes, even to the neglect of our marriage and children, we won’t be able to survive.
I suppose that desperate circumstances may require a temporary deviation from the biblical pattern. But most of us do not actually face such terrible straits.
If we were willing to downsize or accept a lower standard of living living, we would find that the biblical pattern is not only attainable but more enjoyable for the whole family.
Compare Ecclesiastes 4:4-10.
It talks about when you neglect companions for the sake of work.
Actually, I may have mentioned this before, but one time in counseling, I remember counseling a husband and wife.
And the husband was very committed to serving the family by providing for them in his work. And the wife actually said to her husband in the counseling room, “I actually would prefer that we had less money and you spent more time at home.” I think she’s not the only one who feels that way.
Now, should a woman ever be the sole provider for her family?
Key word there is should.
Aside from a single woman living on her own and without the need to take care of a husband or dependent, a woman shouldn’t have to be the sole provider for her household.
This means that Christians who take seriously God’s word should not seek to reverse God’s callings of primary sphere and have the wife work her higher paying job while the husband quits his job, his lower paying job, and stays at home to raise the kids. Stay-at-home dad.
This reversed arrangement makes sense to the world. Maybe you’ve heard people doing this in the world, but this will not have God’s blessing because this is not God’s design.
However, certain sad life changes may sometimes necess necessitate that a woman takes on the role of sole provider, at least temporarily.
Circumstances such as child out of wedlock, a delinquent or unrepentant husband, a deceased husband, a divorced husband, a husband suddenly injured, sick, or out of work.
These are very difficult circumstances.
And unfortunately many Christian single mothers exist and are even part of this church who must by who must by necessity divide themselves between work and raising children.
Such women would be wise to take advantage of family and church help in such a case but ultimately they will have to accept that their situation is going to be extra difficult.
Of course, Christ is still with them to sustain them through their trials, but Christ’s hands and feet. The church should be very keen to help these women with their burdens.
Well, I think that’s all the time I have for answering these questions today.
And that’s all the time we have in this course. I know you may have more questions. If you do, please email me and try and do my best for answering those. But thank you for joining me in this bibl biblical counseling for marriage and parenthood class. Hope the Lord has used this teaching to be a blessing to you in your life and also has enabled you to minister God’s word better to others so you can be a blessing in their lives.
Like I said, if you didn’t if I didn’t get to your submitted question today, I do hope to follow up with you by conversation or email soon. I’m not just going to ignore that.
Don’t forget that we are starting a new Sunday school series next week. Next Sunday at 9:00 am, we’ll begin looking Genesis 3-11. Hope you’ll be back for that. Don’t forget about the optional homework assignments. I think you’ll be blessed by reading one or both of those articles. But that’s it. In the closing prayer, Lord, the situations of life sometimes difficult, sometimes hard to understand.
I’ve sought to give good counsel, Lord, today and across this course. But ultimately, Lord, I don’t want to rest on my opinion. I want to rest on your word. And that’s what I want other people to rest on. It is your word that is authoritative and illuminating and has the power to transform, to expose the heart and to transform. So God, I pray that we would be reliant on your word, that we would be faithful biblical counselors in whatever way we may exercise that ministry. And Lord, that you’d be pleased to use us. Use us in the lives of our children. Use us in the lives of our spouses. Use us in the lives of our brothers and sisters in the church and even those Lord who do not yet know you. I pray God that you’d be glorified and working by your word and spirit and that we would give you all the praise in Jesus name. Amen.
Thank you everyone.